Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero IETF
Richard Shockey <richard@shockey.us> Tue, 21 March 2023 22:45 UTC
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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 18:45:44 -0400
Subject: Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero IETF
From: Richard Shockey <richard@shockey.us>
To: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>, admin-discuss@ietf.org
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Thread-Topic: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero IETF
References: <B8DF18B2-77A2-4A6B-962A-DEFBB1EDFF5A@staff.ietf.org> <20230321172025.18971B41BD75@ary.qy> <20230321210158.6uelg47rosiswjxq@crankycanuck.ca>
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So Andrew ..who are you buying these carbon offsets from Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan? Dear colleagues, I work for the Internet Society but this is only my opinion. On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 01:20:24PM -0400, John Levine wrote: >also reiterate the point that carbon offsets are for suckers. […] >forestry school about how you design forest carbon offsets and it >became clear that you have to make some extremely optimistic >assumptions. You have to believe that whoever has sold you the offset >will be able and willing to prevent logging in some remote forest for >fifty years, and also that they won't turn around resell the same >offset to someone else next year and the year after that. They talked >about how one might audit these things, but it wasn't very persuasive. There is little question that many—perhaps all—offset programs are at least deficient in the actual carbon they will capture over the course of the program. That does not, however, mean that they are necessarily an empty or worthless effort. There are several ways in which they can be beneficial _even if_ they do not generate all the promised benefits. To begin with, of course, actually building in some cost from carbon emissions requires two things: (1) an analysis of how much carbon an activity creates and (2) a commitment to spending that additional money. It is not hard to see that at least some activities could increase carbon emissions in an expensive way just in case a carbon offset is in place, while yet providing only marginal benefit. In that case, the activity will decline, which will inevitably reduce carbon outputs. At its heart, this is the _real_ point of trying to put a price on carbon, and buying carbon offsets is necessarily a part of that story. Second, while the auditing infrastructure for carbon offsets is currently weak (perhaps to the point of absurdity), there is little reason to suppose that the auditing industry will not get better at auditing this area of corporate expenditure as interest grows. And, as failures to respond to audits indicating inadequate controls grow, liability for the consequences of increased carbon will conceivably rise too. That creates a new pressure for action on carbon outputs. Finally, if an organization is serious about these matters, every carbon offset purchase is a sign of continued carbon outputs. Thus, the community (by way of budget and audit documents) automatically gets a way of knowing whether the organization is in fact reducing its carbon outputs (by, say, reducing travel or buying less-carbon-intensive energy) or whether it is not so reducing. The carbon budget of the IETF is, right now, pretty obscure. If you're going to have disputes with people about how much you owe for a given resource, that will allow others to see the extent to which you have accurately measured your resource consumption. None of this, of course, suggests that carbon offsets will make the carbon go away. But they might provide information about the way the organization prioritizes carbon intensity, and thereby allow the organization to change direction. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com <mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… John Levine
- Next steps towards a net zero IETF Greg Wood
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Christian Huitema
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Greg Wood
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Wes Hardaker
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… John Levine
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… John C Klensin
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Richard Shockey
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Eliot Lear
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF George Michaelson
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Ross Finlayson
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Alexander Pelov
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Richard Shockey
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Bob Hinden
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Charlie Perkins
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Richard Shockey
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Christian Huitema
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Raghu Saxena
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Christian Huitema
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Daniel Migault
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Masataka Ohta
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Daniel Migault
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Masataka Ohta
- What are our next steps? Re: Next steps towards a… Eliot Lear
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Julian Reschke
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Alexander Pelov
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- RE: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Michael McBride
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF willi uebelherr
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Andrew McConachie
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Julian Reschke
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Christian Huitema
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Fred Baker
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF touch@strayalpha.com
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Julian Reschke
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Richard Shockey
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Michael Richardson
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Andrew McConachie
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Alexander Pelov
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Christian Huitema
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF John Levine
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… John C Klensin
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF John C Klensin
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Daniel Migault
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Michael Richardson
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Lars Eggert
- Re: Next steps towards a net zero IETF Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… John C Klensin
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Mezgani Ali
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Bob Hinden
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Lars Eggert
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Lars Eggert
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Eliot Lear
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… John C Klensin
- Re: [admin-discuss] Next steps towards a net zero… Abdussalam Baryun