Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words

Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> Wed, 30 March 2016 15:32 UTC

Return-Path: <warren@kumari.net>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76B4312D1E3 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 08:32:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2V5uOPbw2eEL for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 08:32:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-yw0-x233.google.com (mail-yw0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29D7D12D19F for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 08:32:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-yw0-x233.google.com with SMTP id g3so62915244ywa.3 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 08:32:48 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=lycS5QADzfPZr6c1/SMIkv8CMMq1M9cO9oqvIFhsjbw=; b=FV+vl2yBv9Nv0wBq3MjDMhGxmCuuBEWwsG2EpWVwhynrJe99htMO/B3KJqihPogsTX vK2epUvvgFTntU4HyLGGd0cRAa+/R3bmdv4XM8FLD6CsCiC0gQO4yv7iRQPwcK0ee+uh R5mHFyKwXuqLZfBGghwPNvIbqZvkAf9e/Tza4nnwQ+GrpY1O3k2OKM4QcpLMntHkfm1O rsrwtDe6VEPJjHVRi6WmkCSMzYkrre1wyEZh/sNgUVjiGFKmM6V2t470zl7It7Xps+vP QJzqXO4O+Q7C2MNgX4fT/avumLNhz8ozAGhHakEvrHq3vshl3istoHe9OLKyClhes0zK KTlA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=lycS5QADzfPZr6c1/SMIkv8CMMq1M9cO9oqvIFhsjbw=; b=KKABDhJ1ouTk5wBAZkkVX/4RgcMBqeNxmKCEEREMRxO/i2tpTsn0q67wwT2qZ444kZ j3dKrRy3ScoenLsZNpjzVBap2pUMhEElIUz/0t8cLf10wK3awIJ0y9jPwUvGtUi8AZmc 26u33St5LKT7phBGuQuf28HGK/RqkeX0yHBgF4H6x5n30qelYJHpqAWoCW6qN09HXgTq 6+nFVt7Q+eO9f+3uMWBIVbi6W0hp+DmNTWajugKZyW6UVmEG05wBpKQLCyaeMTs+2BsG +vqt4vZqv2E+L+VZ5sexlALJFR+dyMDxsBg4qwRDj4eASDEQraVrw9RUftaiIRdAGKMr bHrA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIdoN0sJTlMqwmHacciWQl0d39L55MVbKHk04B8wbabhG2ebK61nD0yPRiUD1CwUul+PIpha2hSWu5l62x8
X-Received: by 10.129.103.133 with SMTP id b127mr4814255ywc.127.1459351967271; Wed, 30 Mar 2016 08:32:47 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20160320223116.8946.76840.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEAFFC7@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <CA+9kkMCsT43ZCSdq8gdKXu1k4pJgbf0ab5tE=dDiFfrTT2gtkA@mail.gmail.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEB0D16@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <56F79D05.8070004@alvestrand.no> <326E6502-28E5-4D09-BB99-4A5D80625EB0@stewe.org> <56F88E18.2060506@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <20160328104731.GO88304@verdi> <CALaySJ+hYMMsKE7Ws-NJbyqH55E-mQM-duTEcJGc0TWvTP88Ew@mail.gmail.com> <20160328132859.GP88304@verdi> <28975138-9EA1-4A9F-A6C0-BC1416B8EA44@sobco.com> <CALaySJJkNj2jfm0gJpuDzq8oFDjTNn-uQ5MHdmEOLwTiFZUyQQ@mail.gmail.com> <D3215DA5.DBEB4%Lee@asgard.org>
In-Reply-To: <D3215DA5.DBEB4%Lee@asgard.org>
From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 15:32:37 +0000
Message-ID: <CAHw9_iL7+0yeyyMfYnof6uFtW=UZHuvbjPwfjJdMPwM9hbtUYA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words
To: Lee Howard <Lee@asgard.org>, IETF Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11490a9e9cc51c052f45db27"
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/7LAtPZDROjh7uyeC5NC4-vMCbiQ>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 15:32:52 -0000

On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 11:55 AM Lee Howard <Lee@asgard.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 3/28/16, 3:09 PM, "ietf on behalf of Barry Leiba"
> <ietf-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of barryleiba@computer.org> wrote:
>
> >> The wishy washy descriptive rather than proscriptive language in the
> >>abstract was because I,
> >> the IESG and the community were not of one mind to say that the use of
> >>such capitalized
> >> terms should be mandatory - quite a few people felt that the english
> >>language was at
> >> least good enough to convey  the writer¹s intent without having to
> >>aggrandize specific words.
> >> Thus the abstract basically was saying: if you want to use capitalized
> >>words here is a standard
> >> way to say what they mean
> >
> >Ah.  Then perhaps the clarification needs to go a little further and
> >make this clear:
> >- We're defining specific terms that specifications can use.
>
> ³can² = ³MAY²?
>
> >- These terms are always capitalized when these definitions are used.
>
> ³are always² = ³MUST²?
>
> >- You don't have to use them.  If you do, they're capitalized and
> >their meanings are as specified here.
> >- There are similar-looking English words that are not capitalized,
> >and they have their normal English meanings; this document has nothing
> >to do with them.
>
> Gee, I thought rfc2119 was to say, ³These words have their normal English
> meanings.²
>
>
> >
> >...and I'd like to add one more, because so many people think that
> >text isn't normative unless it has 2119 key words in all caps in it:
> >
> >- Normative text doesn't require the use of these key words.  They're
> >used for clarity and consistency when you want that, but lots of
> >normative text doesn't need to use them, and doesn't use them.
>
> I like rfc2119 for specifying protocols, because it very clearly describes
> what MUST be implemented for interoperability to work, what SHOULD be done
> for it to work well or as expected, and what MAY also be included.
>

So, sometimes MUST is too strong, and SHOULD is too weak. Lucking, back in
2012, Ron Bonica and I solved this critical issue, by allowing you much
more granularity in RFC2119 language.

http://www.rfc-editor.org/pipermail/rfc-interest/2012-March/002990.html

We thought it was really cool, but unfortunately, when trying to send it to
RFC Editor my mailer's autocomplete autocompleted to RFC Interest instead
:-(
W




> However, I run into lots of cases with documents that are not intended for
> Standards Track where people tell me I¹m not allowed to use the English
> language because the IETF has defined it otherwise.[1]
>
> I love the English language. It has a beautiful irregularity and dynamism
> that gives it a richness rare among other languages. Romance languages
> have grace, Mandarin has a melody, Japanese has an appealing order, German
> has flexibility, but English is a strong mutt.
>
> Let us not define jargon such that we raise barriers to contributing or
> comprehending internet-drafts. The words ³should,² ³may,² and ³must² are
> natural English. When necessary for normative protocol language, we should
> [2] specify that we mean them in their rfc2119 sense, and may [3]
> capitalize them. In the absence of text saying ³I mean rfc2119,² they have
> natural English language meanings.
>
> Lee
>
>
> [1] To say nothing of rfc6919
> [2] rfc2219 MUST
> [3] rfc2119 MAY
>
> >
> >Barry
> >
> >
>
>
>