Re: New Non-WG Mailing List: CACAO

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Thu, 13 September 2018 10:30 UTC

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To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>, IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: New Non-WG Mailing List: CACAO
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Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 11:30:12 +0100
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Hiya,

On 13/09/18 05:30, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> Full disclosure: I approved this list, so feel free to be unhappy at me.

So two things:

1 - I think a vague list description, lack of messages in
the archive and omitting pointers drafts are all things that
seem to happen a lot with new lists. My suggestion is that
some text like this be somehow visible to proponents and
ADs approving new lists to try reduce that:

   New mailing lists are announced on the ietf-annouce
   list. In a bunch of cases the list description is too
   vague for someone with no context. There may also be
   no messages in the list archive at that point and no
   link to an Internet-draft. In maybe one out of three
   such cases someone asks/complains about that leading
   to other old-farts chiming in about the badness of
   the wrong end of the stick they've inferred from the
   lack of information. That may be followed up by an
   old-fart generalising the discussion, leading to text
   like this being proposed. That's all inauspicious and
   better avoided.

(To be clear, I'm the only old-fart referred to above:-)

2 - as to this list - I've no problem at all with having
a very low bar for new lists, and there is perhaps a topic
for the IETF here - it's just not possible to tell from
the draft. Basically, I'd just prefer that the IETF not
be involved in discussion of the cybercardinality of
cyberangels on cyberpinheads;-)

Cheers,
S.


> 
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 7:55 PM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>;
> wrote:
> 
>>
>> Hiya,
>>
>> On 13/09/18 03:37, Barry Leiba wrote:
>>> This really should have come with a fuller description: I shouldn't
>>> have to contact the list admins just to find out whether a new mailing
>>> list ought to be on my radar or not.
>>
>> Yeah. And the archive's empty. And it uses the almost
>> always meaningless prefix "cyber" over and over in
>> many predictable (but meaningless) ways.
>>
> 
> Well, the archive is empty because it was created today, so I don't think
> that's much of a critique.
> 
> I'll take responsibility for not insisting on there being a very detailed
> description. I generally find the descriptions pretty uninformative (see,
> for instance https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cicm) so my bar isn't
> very high here, but I see how others might feel differently.
> 
> 
> 
> So that's all bad signs IMO then (except for the
>> existence of the draft.)
>>
>> I'm also a bit sad that we've gotten to the point
>> where we're setting up lists driven to any extent
>> by what's really an ill-defined marketing buzzword.
>>
> 
>> OTOH, the goal according to [1] is an information
>> model, so it could be mostly to totally harmless I
>> guess;-)
>>
>> Only other thing to note is that this happens so
>> often (new list for who knows what) that maybe the
>> tooling's a bit wrong and encourages folks to ok
>> or ask for lists without considering that others
>> don't have the same (or any) context.
>>
> 
> I think you and I are just going to have to disagree here. Lists are cheap
> -- they're not WGs -- and I bias in favor of facilitating discussion. I
> think this is appropriate especially in view of the fact that one of the
> first questions we ask for a proposed BOF is whether there has been a lot
> of list traffic. Again, you're free to feel differently.
> 
> -Ekr
> 
> 
> 
>> Cheers,
>> S.
>>
>> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jordan-cacao-introduction-00
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Barry
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 4:58 PM, IETF Secretariat
>>> <ietf-secretariat@ietf.org>; wrote:
>>>> A new IETF non-working group email list has been created.
>>>>
>>>> List address: cacao@ietf.org
>>>> Archive: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cacao/
>>>> To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cacao
>>>>
>>>> Purpose:
>>>> This email list will be used to discuss Collaborative Automated Course
>> of
>>>> Action Operations (CACAO) for Cyber Security
>>>>
>>>> For additional information, please contact the list administrators.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>