Re: New Non-WG Mailing List: CACAO

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Thu, 13 September 2018 10:30 UTC

Return-Path: <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A408130DCB for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 13 Sep 2018 03:30:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.3
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UUaY9NF2Hpl6 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 13 Sep 2018 03:30:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8E7812008A for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Sep 2018 03:30:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 433A1BE3E; Thu, 13 Sep 2018 11:30:14 +0100 (IST)
Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vqqmvUfn1Qus; Thu, 13 Sep 2018 11:30:14 +0100 (IST)
Received: from [134.226.36.93] (bilbo.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.93]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 03AA2BE39; Thu, 13 Sep 2018 11:30:14 +0100 (IST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1536834614; bh=D9i3FVz6NwYohbMY6Y9iy/51ZmEKmiHjPVH6ky7Cwu4=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=qashUjvfspkOpBY0M7xLO/IVLWHfcOMo9vuWjKA7Nh0TXLr8ss2S6MXeckbZGUWNY 6Ox4B0j08kvVUvmsGd18pVMF4iJQkZVTUdMyv1I08xiMuYB5Nfq52fd26ScTu923WY I0VeyIp3xxbU/7VHOn/YjUbt8oL1pwcuARxDFD+U=
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>, IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
References: <153678592168.9395.10391346115284210918.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <CAC4RtVCe_Kp7oBg6NewiOvBqRZ9=QKeYZydErxmmUrsjyW4Mnw@mail.gmail.com> <60607ea9-1aba-6512-4a52-b7c8e09c91ba@cs.tcd.ie> <CABcZeBPb45EOsOi9bZPyTMryoktxZt5_ziB8jKXUsRyGPnXQ-Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url=
Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzTJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPsLBgAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxM7BTQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw==
Subject: Re: New Non-WG Mailing List: CACAO
Message-ID: <c94ff4f8-69da-ba41-7338-34f16f409429@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 11:30:12 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CABcZeBPb45EOsOi9bZPyTMryoktxZt5_ziB8jKXUsRyGPnXQ-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha512"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Xaypm1qiEbCIz5TiDvVcpxRqgFqRgU3Za"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/7hFNbcNzfLMr0QTdm_7Jhkk8m6w>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 10:30:20 -0000

Hiya,

On 13/09/18 05:30, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> Full disclosure: I approved this list, so feel free to be unhappy at me.

So two things:

1 - I think a vague list description, lack of messages in
the archive and omitting pointers drafts are all things that
seem to happen a lot with new lists. My suggestion is that
some text like this be somehow visible to proponents and
ADs approving new lists to try reduce that:

   New mailing lists are announced on the ietf-annouce
   list. In a bunch of cases the list description is too
   vague for someone with no context. There may also be
   no messages in the list archive at that point and no
   link to an Internet-draft. In maybe one out of three
   such cases someone asks/complains about that leading
   to other old-farts chiming in about the badness of
   the wrong end of the stick they've inferred from the
   lack of information. That may be followed up by an
   old-fart generalising the discussion, leading to text
   like this being proposed. That's all inauspicious and
   better avoided.

(To be clear, I'm the only old-fart referred to above:-)

2 - as to this list - I've no problem at all with having
a very low bar for new lists, and there is perhaps a topic
for the IETF here - it's just not possible to tell from
the draft. Basically, I'd just prefer that the IETF not
be involved in discussion of the cybercardinality of
cyberangels on cyberpinheads;-)

Cheers,
S.


> 
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 7:55 PM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
> wrote:
> 
>>
>> Hiya,
>>
>> On 13/09/18 03:37, Barry Leiba wrote:
>>> This really should have come with a fuller description: I shouldn't
>>> have to contact the list admins just to find out whether a new mailing
>>> list ought to be on my radar or not.
>>
>> Yeah. And the archive's empty. And it uses the almost
>> always meaningless prefix "cyber" over and over in
>> many predictable (but meaningless) ways.
>>
> 
> Well, the archive is empty because it was created today, so I don't think
> that's much of a critique.
> 
> I'll take responsibility for not insisting on there being a very detailed
> description. I generally find the descriptions pretty uninformative (see,
> for instance https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cicm) so my bar isn't
> very high here, but I see how others might feel differently.
> 
> 
> 
> So that's all bad signs IMO then (except for the
>> existence of the draft.)
>>
>> I'm also a bit sad that we've gotten to the point
>> where we're setting up lists driven to any extent
>> by what's really an ill-defined marketing buzzword.
>>
> 
>> OTOH, the goal according to [1] is an information
>> model, so it could be mostly to totally harmless I
>> guess;-)
>>
>> Only other thing to note is that this happens so
>> often (new list for who knows what) that maybe the
>> tooling's a bit wrong and encourages folks to ok
>> or ask for lists without considering that others
>> don't have the same (or any) context.
>>
> 
> I think you and I are just going to have to disagree here. Lists are cheap
> -- they're not WGs -- and I bias in favor of facilitating discussion. I
> think this is appropriate especially in view of the fact that one of the
> first questions we ask for a proposed BOF is whether there has been a lot
> of list traffic. Again, you're free to feel differently.
> 
> -Ekr
> 
> 
> 
>> Cheers,
>> S.
>>
>> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jordan-cacao-introduction-00
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Barry
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 4:58 PM, IETF Secretariat
>>> <ietf-secretariat@ietf.org> wrote:
>>>> A new IETF non-working group email list has been created.
>>>>
>>>> List address: cacao@ietf.org
>>>> Archive: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cacao/
>>>> To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cacao
>>>>
>>>> Purpose:
>>>> This email list will be used to discuss Collaborative Automated Course
>> of
>>>> Action Operations (CACAO) for Cyber Security
>>>>
>>>> For additional information, please contact the list administrators.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>