IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side meeting at IETF105.)

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Fri, 19 July 2019 01:47 UTC

Return-Path: <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5064120044 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:47:05 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.999
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h2DrQFExFW66 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:47:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf1-x434.google.com (mail-pf1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E39712002E for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:47:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf1-x434.google.com with SMTP id 19so13433320pfa.4 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:47:04 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Cf5Bw4yCP0ricNd/U+XAsupomGxs3evH5ZHtx9MLC44=; b=apsv/aqMumVrT00KnWZyzZ84l8g0Dvn8obK8xPIXhQpi7Z4+mpzssMd7n83aF5SzId iddTWhgkaw9ej2w5QOVOTJLPZLmSVRXXlgNcYvbEfPfvtv39vAoh9ywBKGq5z5no0Drc AidBphL3bDxhp725w0/7hVZkg4hDN7H6lvnmSh8aKRFrIMQ82yAZeC9YDiM1lHgvTBFE 8quewZImYlMchCPR+ccagJIHnhodeBzjMsb5Saq9xXCflGWoaB9F8g7FoKfs8ZslxSy0 EBOS9tcnB95n3LEGPUhd27d6V37pZ9YEL9mOJnevQFkxkU4gh2n9nNwr1dtxJNQ01mm3 4hVw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Cf5Bw4yCP0ricNd/U+XAsupomGxs3evH5ZHtx9MLC44=; b=l/YHOV5YOsIv6Wzi1VojaIMhOixo5zj3h2rNlW0ZGm52jzH4m46K5ma/cZCEd/qqs6 IXqJm+dOgmQtV3lIK1sSwS50DI5uvkDX+5qssczJ7um1AqkUwzMAEm8gHH1EYU/lw0ke 2g8b1mc84f1W3ZY2NGK1g4BjR+xBNNBjVtcVdrdc+lOZq9wBpEc4nPp2hi8kl2xrlCz+ r0CYUG4I8Ta3S/4rTVhGl+tS4Fg5P0FqQksa32H6YZ4EsVlAovv2umcWpY56easJwtLb +yjsXGirvu8UwgGa8Eet0hgjRBipmz0T7dr0dgH/ffJ8Iq8tjEl0t7xROl1gYX5l7a6f zhDA==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV7ojAaDBI/K8hPSmaS9wJb/J/mmsoIxMqaBqEAFk3eCvSZftf+ VXJoLptp7+mXunjg33FtsWFrTwnS
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqydl52WQL6RoKtEEhlXX663kd4S6k9T8Yxluj6m6ChRIivO0jBNkeWM/wdLU9ST6TdWemrXwg==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:ab0b:: with SMTP id m11mr56200177pjq.73.1563500823250; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:47:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.178.30] (40.226.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.226.40]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a20sm23960184pjo.0.2019.07.18.18.47.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:47:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side meeting at IETF105.)
To: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>, Job Snijders <job@instituut.net>
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
References: <6317584D-4C9B-46E9-8197-D2A488701868@fugue.com> <20190704140552.GE49950@hanna.meerval.net> <b0943792-1afc-0c94-51b7-f2d393ef39c5@network-heretics.com> <20190705205723.GI55957@shrubbery.net> <20190706185415.GB14026@mit.edu> <CABcZeBPgNr5UqQ0pLwwNu5wh0g9L9wCd6YyYKCUDO37SPru-_Q@mail.gmail.com> <20190708202612.GG60909@shrubbery.net> <9ae14ad1-f8d5-befb-64e4-fff063c88e02@network-heretics.com> <20190717004659.GC67328@shrubbery.net> <00618698-deec-64cf-b478-b85e46647602@network-heretics.com> <20190718231911.GA75391@shrubbery.net> <ed9d3b5b-7442-fdee-8f0f-c614ca4b59e4@network-heretics.com> <CACWOCC-T13zD1DVKA1H3UTNG9iKdNz5TDzObYPk_A6sjfPKFug@mail.gmail.com> <8F980759-324F-49C5-925A-DF0EEABBBD21@network-heretics.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d08dbee2-7844-d813-0b93-5db503501c7e@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 13:46:57 +1200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <8F980759-324F-49C5-925A-DF0EEABBBD21@network-heretics.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/7kdqkdrs672pJfBfD68fp-ZfKDs>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:47:06 -0000

On 19-Jul-19 13:23, Keith Moore wrote:
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jul 18, 2019, at 9:16 PM, Job Snijders <job@instituut.net <mailto:job@instituut.net>> wrote:
>>
>> I think you just now offended basically every working group participant.
>>
> 
> Not deliberately, of course.  But in general WGs can sometimes exhibit tunnel vision.  And ietf has a bad habit of trying to bypass tussles by creating WGs with overly narrow scope.., which doesn’t solve the tussle, just exacerbates it.  So yeah, in general, WG output needs external review.

I think it varies enormously between WGs. There are some that are small, expert, highly specialised and really do know more than anyone else about their topic, which is relatively self-contained. There are others that don't meet any of those criteria. Job's right about the first kind. Keith's right about the second kind, which really do need third party review. As a GenART reviewer, I've seen all sorts.

   Brian

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email