Changing culture [was Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY]
Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Fri, 13 February 2015 19:43 UTC
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Message-ID: <54DE53F1.7020609@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 08:43:45 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com>, ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Changing culture [was Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY]
References: <CAL0qLwZk=k-CWLte_ChK9f1kzLwMOTRyi7AwFa8fLjBsextBcA@mail.gmail.com> <9772.1420830216@sandelman.ca> <CAL0qLwZatYW2e4Wk6GXB2U26fsCn8BV2qt-07kHBugiq34zrcQ@mail.gmail.com> <6025.1423672358@sandelman.ca> <CAL0qLwYtE618sA99hgXP-5wk+BYdcXLbiZqd_36OreYQ1LB7hQ@mail.gmail.com> <732CCD31-0F13-472F-9825-C5F5D650C41B@vigilsec.com> <2457EE06-4960-40B5-AF10-2EDFBF18B2B6@nominum.com> <7C601AA4-55C4-43FE-B2FE-1D22BD73F166@vigilsec.com> <CAKHUCzyJ62hVyJVVLuL5-nXx_i5VO2cW3LA6R1sdZbDHxoY_Tw@mail.gmail.com> <43ADF7ED-6A42-4097-8FFA-5DA0FC21D07A@vigilsec.com> <CAKHUCzyfB+GhNqmDhrzki4tVn0faMLyt_cqgeHFcQL2b5pkkAQ@mail.gmail.com> <54DE3E1C.6060105@gmail.com>
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Hi Melinda, On 14/02/2015 07:10, Melinda Shore wrote: > On 2/13/15 8:44 AM, Dave Cridland wrote: >> Moreover, if you accept that the word "culture" is effectively >> indistinguishable to outsiders from the term "status quo" (though the >> intent is obviously different), it's really quite revealing. All this >> "preserving the culture" talk comes out in an entirely different light. > > I think this is a really important comment. I mean, > *really* important comment. It is. We need to preserve the useful parts of our culture, of course. But corridor conversations at meetings is only one aspect of that. The ability to hear from, and respond to, anybody with email is another one. > But it also seems to me pretty clear that the culture > is changing, anyway, and it's one of those things that > I expect most people know without addressing it directly. > I don't think meetings were so heavily emphasized 10 > years ago, although that's subjective and could be wrong. I think it's probably wrong. Whatever other changes have occurred (such as noticeable improvement in remote participation technology, for those who recall the occasional burps of audio from the audio multicast setup in the 1990's, and very great improvement in the on-line tools), the underlying human beings are still running the same software. As I type this, I can visualise Melinda and think of her as a real person. That is significant, and only possible because we've attended quite a few meetings together. Humans work that way. High quality audio/video can help with this, but my own experience in a large company heavily dependent on remote interaction was clear: it helps enormously if you have real, in the room, contact with the remote people once or twice a year. Eating a meal with somebody creates a bond. Have we diluted the principle that decisions are taken on the mailing list? I don't think so. Have we diluted the principle that details are debated on the mailing list? I don't think so. But we haven't changed the fundamental nature of human beings as social animals, either. > We've now got a very large number of people participating > whose primary job function is to create standards, and > that's caused some changes because their incentives are > different from those whose job it is to create products > or technology. I don't know how long it's been since > running code was a significant adjunct to the work being > done in the IETF, but I think it's been quite awhile. That isn't true everywhere in the IETF. For certain types of protocol & product, it is clearly a real problem due to long development cycles. I don't know how to fix that, because it seems to be a feature of the real world, not a social artefact. > So these cultural shifts are taking place anyway, and > they are not being "managed." Some are good, some are not. > I do think that the increased significance of meetings > in IETF participation (and here, I'm not talking about > things like nomcom but about significance to our technical > work) is a problem, both because it tends to marginalize > people who can't come to meetings and because it slows > work down. It is very clear that things have slowed down compared, let's say, to 20 years ago. It's harder to introduce new things than it used to be, because of the size of the network and the inertia of operational practices. So running code at an early stage is definitely harder, and (as I said above) product development cycles are longer. I think that's outside our control. Thank goodness we have three hard deadlines a year, set by the meetings. Otherwise, I think we'd be even slower. Brian
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom Eric Burger
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom John C Klensin
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael StJohns
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Mary Barnes
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Joel Halpern
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Ted Lemon
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Ted Lemon
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Russ Housley
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Ted Lemon
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Dave Cridland
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Joel Halpern
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Joel M. Halpern
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Loa Andersson
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Melinda Shore
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Dave Cridland
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Ted Lemon
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY John Leslie
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Ted Lemon
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Mary Barnes
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Russ Housley
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Mary Barnes
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Stewart Bryant
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Sam Hartman
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Dave Cridland
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Joel Halpern
- about remote attendance and hallway discussions Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Melinda Shore
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: about remote attendance and hallway discussio… Mary Barnes
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY John C Klensin
- Changing culture [was Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomC… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Dave Cridland
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Ted Lemon
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Mary Barnes
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Brian Trammell
- Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 10 --… Brian E Carpenter
- Appealing WG chair selections [Re: Updating BCP 1… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… info@isoc.org.ec
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Lixia Zhang
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Melinda Shore
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Lixia Zhang
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Larry Masinter
- Re: Community and hall conversations Ted Lemon
- Community and hall conversations Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… info@isoc.org.ec
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Yoav Nir
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ray Pelletier
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees John Leslie
- Re: Remote participation fees John Leslie
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees John Leslie
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Dave Cridland
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Remote participation fees John Leslie
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Randy Bush
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Randy Bush
- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Scott Kitterman
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Dave Cridland
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Dave Cridland
- RE: Remote participation fees Christer Holmberg
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Michael Richardson
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Dave Cridland
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Dave Cridland
- RE: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote participation fees Stewart Bryant
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… James Gannon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Carlos Vera Quintana
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Carlos Vera Quintana
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Sam Hartman
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom Allison Mankin
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY John C Klensin
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Remote participation fees Eric Burger
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Yoav Nir
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Remote participation fees Tim Chown
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing par… Eric Burger
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Ted Lemon
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Dave Crocker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Remote participation fees Nico Williams
- Re: Remote participation fees Nico Williams
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing the w… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Benson Schliesser
- Re: Remote participation fees Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Yoav Nir
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work John C Klensin
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Alia Atlas
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Mary Barnes
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Dave Crocker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Nico Williams
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Andy Bierman
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work John C Klensin
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Nico Williams
- RE: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Christer Holmberg
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Alia Atlas
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Mary Barnes
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Nico Williams
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Stephen Farrell
- Re: sweets to the sweet, was 'Paywall, ' IETF sel… John Levine
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… l.wood
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Randy Bush
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… joel jaeggli
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Andy Bierman
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.