RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> Wed, 24 February 2021 08:47 UTC
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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>, "'ietf@ietf.org'" <ietf@ietf.org>, GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org>, Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Subject: RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
Thread-Topic: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
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Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:47:40 +0000
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Hi Brian, Thanks for the questions. > Can you justify "increasing number"? I don't mean compared to 1986, but compared (for example) to 2011? As long as I can remember, people have been concerned about participants who are "goers" rather than "doers" at meetings, and you seem to be adding a further concern, "doers" whose action is to write text rather than write code. [Hannes] I started noticing it after the IETF started the hackathons, which gave implementers more visibility. In the groups I participate in, I regularly ask around for volunteers to join the hackathon. Then, you get an idea who is interested to participate and who isn't. The hackathons are also a "light" form of coding because you are selecting a really small specification aspect only. Hence, the bar is pretty low for entry. At f2f hackathons you also have a number of people joining who use the event to chat. So, you have to take this into account as well. [Hannes] Since I am attending a small number of the working groups I am obviously curious whether others have made a similar observation. Maybe I am hanging around in the "wrong" groups. I also attend OAuth and TLS, which are different. In those two groups a lot of implementation and deployment work is happening. > Also, you don't mention operators, whose role is not to write code at all but whose contribution to the IETF is essential. So that's another category of "doers". [Hannes] Actually, I wouldn't make this distinction because it is really about the persons involved. Every bigger organization has people who are more disconnected from the engineering than others. That's totally fine. Also consider that we are not talking about writing product-quality implementations in this conversation. Those implementations are often, with the level of specialization in our world, created and maintained by bigger teams in a company. With our regularly changing drafts I would recommend to wait with product-quality code till the specification matures or is completed. > I'd like to see some actual facts about these various categories of "doers". What % were they 10 or 20 years ago, and what % are they now? Has the hackathon changed the numbers? Etc. [Hannes] We could collect some numbers. I doubt it would be easy to collect them from the past. We could re-use the document shepherd writeup. Already today we (at least Rifaat and I do it) indicate whether there are implementations of a specific specification. We could add information about testing, hackathon participations, and details about the implementations. We could capture whether the authors themselves have worked on the code or someone else. If it was someone else, we could try to loop them into the discussion to collect the feedback. > > I would include this aspect under diversity, particularly when talking about the new leadership election cycles. > Yes, it should be on NomCom's radar. The need for enough ops people has long been understood, but recent development experience is also relevant. > > Participating in some working groups I more and more get the impression to sit in a document writing class rather than in an Internet engineering organization. > Since our principal output is text, that isn't so surprising, but I think there's a case for sending any spec that does not adhere to RFC7942/BCP205 back to the WG. [Hannes] On the surface, it looks like we are producing text. But actually we want much more. We want running code (in the sense of deployed code) and we should expand it to "running secure code". I think that this is the biggest mental obstacle. If we believe our work is done when the specification is done, then we will fail to reach the full potential of our work. I understand that this message is inconvenient because many participants have difficulties to influence the deployment or even implementations. This is also the cause of a lot of frustration in the IETF work because person A says or writes "I went feature foo." but persons B and C then need to implement 'foo' and then deploy it. Needless to say that persons B and C are less excited about doing the work for person A. IMHO this is the root cause of many conflicts as far as I can see. > > *: I am also including authors of protocol specifications that do not implement their own specifications. > That's a bit cruel. [Hannes] The IETF mission statement says that we care about "engineering quality" and "running code" then we have to figure out how we get there. As mentioned in other conversations, for me this means more use of formal methods for security protocols and implementations supporting specifications. I would also point to the need for testing but I am already now stretching the limits of what people are willing to hear... > In larger organisations, it might be totally infeasible. But again, RFC7942 is our friend. [Hannes] As mention above, I am not asking for product-quality code. For what I am trying to accomplish, namely to feed implementation experience back into the specification work, I would already be happy to get the implementers involved. Having worked in a big telco equipment manufacturer myself I know that the implementers do not start their work until the specification is finished (or even years later). So, you would need some prototyping work while you are writing the spec. At least when I was working for this unnamed telco equipment manufacturer, developing prototypes and PoCs was in scope of my work. Ciao Hannes IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
- Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Bron Gondwana
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Dominique Lazanski
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dominique Lazanski
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Carsten Bormann
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Bron Gondwana
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Rifaat Shekh-Yusef
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Bron Gondwana
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Stephen Farrell
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Roman Danyliw
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Donald Eastlake
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Carsten Bormann
- Making headway in the IETF [was Diversity and Inc… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Making headway in the IETF [was Diversity and… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Mark Nottingham
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Rifaat Shekh-Yusef
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Mary Barnes
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bill Woodcock
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Tim Bray
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Bron Gondwana
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Jim Fenton
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Building Real Internet Platforms Mark Nottingham
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Larry Masinter
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Jim Manico
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Carsten Bormann
- We appear to still be litigating OAuth, oops Bron Gondwana
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF S Moonesamy
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiveness … Keith Moore
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Carsten Bormann
- RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Bron Gondwana
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Neil Madden
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Aaron Parecki
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Jim Willeke
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Justin Richer
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Aaron Parecki
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Mary Barnes
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Tim Bray
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Christian Huitema
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Michael Richardson
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Phillip Hunt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Michael Thomas
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Michael Thomas
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Christian Hopps
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Bron Gondwana
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Jen Linkova
- Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the … Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Christian Huitema
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF S Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF S Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Seán Kelleher
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Seán Kelleher
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Andrew Campling
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Marc Petit-Huguenin
- document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Joel M. Halpern
- RE: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Larry Masinter
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF S Moonesamy
- RE: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Larry Masinter
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Julian Reschke
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Colin Perkins
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Andrew McConachie
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bill Woodcock
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Justin Richer
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Tim Bray
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Aaron Parecki
- How to tell people... Was: We appear to still be … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: How to tell people... Was: We appear to still… Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Julian Reschke
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- RE: document writing/editing tools used by IETF STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Christian Huitema
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Michael Thomas
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… David Waite
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Aaron Parecki
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF John Levine
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Michael Richardson
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: How to tell people... Was: We appear to still… Michael Richardson
- Re: How to tell people... Was: We appear to still… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF John Levine
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Michael Richardson
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Christian Huitema
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… John Wroclawski
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF John Levine
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bron Gondwana
- HTML for email (was: Re: document writing/editing… Keith Moore
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: HTML for email (was: Re: document writing/edi… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Jeff Craig
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: HTML for email tom petch
- RE: HTML for email Larry Masinter
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Salz, Rich
- RE: document writing/editing tools used by IETF STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: HTML for email Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: HTML for email (was: Re: document writing/edi… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: HTML for email Nico Williams
- Re: HTML for email Nico Williams
- Re: HTML for email Nico Williams
- Re: HTML for email Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: HTML for email Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: HTML for email Bron Gondwana
- Re: HTML for email John Levine
- RE: HTML for email Larry Masinter
- Re: HTML for email Brian E Carpenter
- Re: HTML for email Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: HTML for email tom petch
- Re: HTML for email tom petch
- Re: HTML for email ned+ietf
- Re: HTML for email Nick Hilliard
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: HTML for email ned+ietf
- Re: HTML for email tom petch
- Re: HTML for email Nick Hilliard
- Re: HTML for email Nico Williams
- Re: HTML for email tom petch
- Re: HTML for email Nico Williams
- Re: HTML for email Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- RE: HTML for email Larry Masinter
- Re: HTML for email Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: HTML for email Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Wes Hardaker