Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-authz-extns-07.txt
Bob Jolliffe <bobjolliffe@gmail.com> Wed, 11 February 2009 16:49 UTC
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:49:26 +0000
Message-ID: <a1820cc70902110849r73f825aei555d011586757ed@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-authz-extns-07.txt
From: Bob Jolliffe <bobjolliffe@gmail.com>
To: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
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Hi 2009/2/11 Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>: > Hi, > > On 2/11/09 3:21 PM, "Bob Jolliffe" <bobjolliffe@gmail.com> wrote: > >> [...] >> I think (I hope) their is a general consensus that IETF >> standards should be freely implementable and usable for the manner in >> which they are intended. >> > > The phrase "freely implementable and usable" may be the key > misconception/misunderstanding by the FSF people. As several hundred IPR > disclosures with RAND terms against issued standards track RFCs show, the > consensus (at least in those cases) in the IETF has been, and still is, that > IETF RFCs do not necessarily have to be royalty-free or unencumbered. > Personally, I view those as "free" just as well; my definition of freedom is > somewhat different than the FSF's definition. I agree that the consensus has been (and still is) that IETF standards do not necessarily have to be royalty-free or unencumbered. I also think this is unfortunate. And yet ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/bcp/bcp79.txt does express a clear preference that "In general, IETF working groups prefer technologies with no known IPR claims or, for technologies with claims against them, an offer of royalty-free licensing." I suspect that this preference is not solely for ideological reasons or because of any misconceptions or misunderstandings. But rather for clear, practical and pragmatic reasons. I think a concern here is that the IPR disclosure in this case is crafted in such a way as to give the impression that you can "freely implement" the standard ("No licence requirements") when in fact you can't use it to perform authorisation based on legally binding agreements. This does seem to be simply misleading and I am not sure why they have crafted such a statement. Surely, to clear the low bar of permissability, all they need to do is disclose the patent and not offer any licencing information at all. I'm sorry if I smell a rat. > > I fully understand that this is not aligned with FSF's position on standards > in general. The way to address this misalignment is to work in the IETF > towards an FSF-compatible patent regime, and not rant about one specific > draft that somehow got on the FSF's campaign radar. The best way, IMO, to > work towards such a regime, would be that FSF activists, instead of wasting > their time on mailbombing, invent great new concepts, protocols, and write > them down in the form of Internet drafts, and make them freely available in > the IETF and elsewhere. > I think this is a question of governance. Firstly it's not just the FSF who are concerned about patents in standards. The South African government, for example, have a strong commitment to using standards which are available under royalty free terms. As do many other state and other actors. And we all have an interest in using the internet and IETF standards. Not all of these stakeholders have the time or expertise to engage more fully in IETF standards development. But they still have legitimate cause to be concerned about appropriation of basic internet standards. And to raise those concerns on the mailing lists of the IETF. It seems you (and some others) are suggesting that in order to be heard at the IETF you need to clear some sort of hurdle. I fully agree that direct participation and involvement is the best way to influence and drive agendas in standards organisations. But those who do participate must also understand that they have some responsibility to a broader community. Particularly when we are talking about internet standards. I think the IETF strives to be more than a place in which a sufficiently driven and self-interested person or organisation can promote standards which advance their economic or ideological position. In fact I know it does. Regards Bob > > Regards, > Stephan > > > > >
- yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-authz-ex… Bob Jolliffe
- Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-auth… Stephan Wenger
- Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-auth… Simon Josefsson
- Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-auth… Stephan Wenger
- Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-auth… Bob Jolliffe
- Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-auth… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: yet another comment on draft-housley-tls-auth… Simon Josefsson
- IETF and open source license compatibility (Was: … Jari Arkko
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (W… Tony Finch
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (W… Rémi Denis-Courmont
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (W… Jari Arkko
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (W… Scott Brim
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (W… Aaron Williamson
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (W… Margaret Wasserman
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (W… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (W… Tony Finch
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (W… Jari Arkko
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility (W… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Simon Josefsson
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Simon Josefsson
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Simon Josefsson
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility TSG
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Joel M. Halpern
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Simon Josefsson
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Simon Josefsson
- RE: IETF and open source license compatibility Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility TSG
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Jaap Akkerhuis
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Wes Hardaker
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Wes Hardaker
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Harald Alvestrand
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Jukka Ruohonen
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Simon Josefsson
- Including the GPL in GPL code (Re: IETF and open … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Willie Gillespie
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Simon Josefsson
- Re: Including the GPL in GPL code (Re: IETF and o… Simon Josefsson
- Re: Including the GPL in GPL code (Re: IETF and o… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Including the GPL in GPL code (Re: IETF and o… Simon Josefsson
- Re: Including the GPL in GPL code (Re: IETF and o… Thierry Moreau
- RE: Including the GPL in GPL code (Re: IETF and o… Pasi.Eronen
- Re: Including the GPL in GPL code (Re: IETF and o… Simon Josefsson
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Scott O. Bradner
- (Re: IETF and open source license compatibility) Scott Kitterman
- On the best use of IETF resources with respect to… Paul Hoffman
- Re: On the best use of IETF resources with respec… Simon Josefsson
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IETF and open source license compatibility Brian E Carpenter