Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words
Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> Wed, 30 March 2016 16:32 UTC
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Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 17:32:07 +0100
Message-ID: <CAKHUCzyhUwxvk3sQzZGHHZf-vh8B9wtp4DQ9qRcJ0sdi3o1UNw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words
From: Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>
To: Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net>
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Cc: IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>, "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" <rse@rfc-editor.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
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On 30 March 2016 at 15:34, Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> wrote: > On 3/30/2016 7:09 AM, Adam Roach wrote: > >> - There are similar-looking English words that are not capitalized, >>> and they have their normal English meanings; this document has nothing >>> to do with them. >>> >> >> Yes. This. This, this, this, a million times, this. If we published a >> document that said only this, it would be a huge net win for the >> community. >> > > > Assuming that merely documenting this explicitly is sufficient, perhaps. > > That such a rule differs from natural English -- which does not typically > alter semantics based on case -- and that most readers of RFCs will not > have such detailed knowledge of RFC2119 nor read RFCs with the care such a > rule demands, my question BARRY and adam and EveryOne Else, is what makes > anyone think that such a rule must (MUST?) ensure proper reading of RFCs so > as to distinguish between normative portions and advisory portions? > > Sorry, I think that's nonsense. RFC 2119 and its capitalized keywords are well known to anyone reading any specifications, these days. I think we can actually assume a priori knowledge of RFC 2119, for the most part. What I think would be far more surprising is this notion that the keywords, noted and referenced in capitals, also have the same precise meaning and force when written normally. I'd note that in typical technical books, different typefaces are often used to indicate verbatim commands or code, placeholders, etc - the practise of using typographical conventions not normally found in written English in technical literature is not only extremely prevalent, but in this case in particular this is the assumption of the vast majority of those likely to read it. If you don't believe me, go look at a XEP, or a PEP, or a W3C-TR, or any of hundreds of ad-hoc specifications from community efforts to proprietary HTTP APIs - they all use RFC 2119 language, often without even bothering to cite the document. That's not to say that when reviewing a document, a lower-case "must" might not be better as a "MUST" - but I don't see it as any different to a similarly lower case "ought" being phrased better as a "SHOULD" if that's really what was meant. The keywords exist to enhance clarity - but nothing more. A mandatory requirement can be expressed without the "M" word. We can mention that not implementing a feature causes interoperability issues without using the "S" word. Knowing that we may read such text does not make it "OPTIONAL". Finally, I'd note in passing that "bill" and "Bill", "will" and "Will", "heather" and "Heather", all have different semantics based on case - not that this is particular relevant. > It's worth distinguishing between rules that make the writers more > comfortable, from rules that aid the reading efficacy in practical terms. > > d/ > > -- > > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > >
- Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John Leslie
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Barry Leiba
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John C Klensin
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Barry Leiba
- Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC2119 w… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Eric Gray
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Barry Leiba
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John Levine
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words David Farmer
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dick Franks
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words S Moonesamy
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Tony Finch
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Scott Bradner
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Loa Andersson
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Randy Bush
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Scott Bradner
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Ben Campbell
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Dave Cridland
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Dave Cridland
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Eliot Lear
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Dave Cridland
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Crocker
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Eliot Lear
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Lee Howard
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Ben Campbell
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Warren Kumari
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Cridland
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Crocker
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John C Klensin
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Pat Thaler
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Barry Leiba
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Cridland
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Mark Andrews
- RE: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
- RE: [rtcweb] Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question … Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words tom p.
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Lee Howard
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Francis Dupont