Re: Diversity and offensive terminology in RFCs

Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> Thu, 20 September 2018 19:45 UTC

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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:45:41 +0200
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com>
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Diversity and offensive terminology in RFCs
Message-ID: <20180920194541.heajm2o4c22olw35@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <cafa1282-ae6a-93de-ea4a-d100af28d8b8@digitaldissidents.org> <20180920132601.uwv2lblcvr4ojtk5@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <CAHbuEH7jeGLBMH8Yi+_o+o-NvZKmWt4KbtwbP-8XtL0taUCx_Q@mail.gmail.com> <20180920143103.lvg6rmkzqfyjq3fr@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <52399791-9285-bcab-4fcd-3eb0f0a1f64f@gmail.com> <20180920151907.5wxxlccrvcgzjzcz@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <0FE3D4B6-CDDC-40A5-AC84-9C9E24278919@vpnc.org> <20180920171706.vemkprtgq2potrkr@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <ca7af257-7b70-0074-fa67-a2e783364084@gmail.com>
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On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 09:39:01AM -0800, Melinda Shore wrote:
> On 9/20/18 9:17 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote:
> > Obviously every case is different, but in the case of python, i can't
> > see how this helps slaves and as Steward nicely described the desired
> > semantic is quite well represented by the prior choice of language
> > (master/slave). 
> 
> I don't think it's particularly difficult to find other terminology,
> but I'll agree that the will to do so appears lacking. 

The question is also always how to usefully address
sensibilities/problems, and doctoring with language just
has a tradition of being done instead of more effective means
of addressing them.

>  Anyway, the
> Python folk really are committed to building and diversifying their
> community and are proactive about reaching out to people from
> countries where human trafficking is a current and pressing problem.

Sure. And you really think that this change in python is at least
perceived as a useful ? I fear it would be perceived cynical as
just a theater because it does not really help the matter.

> I grew up in the US south and am old enough to have known the
> children and grandchildren of slaves.  We are shown time after time
> after time that universalizing our own experience leads us to make
> some fundamental mistakes, as you do here.

I guess in this case i am probably arguing from an absence of
an eperience with slavery, while you may be universalizing your
experience with it.

I am always happy about crisp examples how some proposal does actually
help. I have not seen this for the master/slave case.

> I'm also really unclear on what you expect the outcome of replying
> "No, you actually don't" to people who say "I care about <x>" will be.

Calling out virtue signaling is not denying that someone cares,
just that its not helping.

Cheers
    Toerless


> 
> Melinda

-- 
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tte@cs.fau.de