Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blacklists and Whitelists)
Matthias Leisi <matthias@leisi.net> Sun, 09 November 2008 17:41 UTC
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Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 18:41:31 +0100
From: Matthias Leisi <matthias@leisi.net>
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To: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Subject: Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blacklists and Whitelists)
References: <20081108184543.26372.qmail@simone.iecc.com> <4915ED75.9000509@network-heretics.com> <45AEC6EF95942140888406588E1A66020413DD9E@PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com> <49167AF6.8020101@network-heretics.com> <491688BA.7060906@nortel.com> <49171925.9020201@network-heretics.com>
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[Disclosure: I am the leader of the dnswl.org project; I provided some input into the DNSxL draft as far as it concerns whitelists.] Keith Moore schrieb: > These incidents happen one at a time. It's rarely worth suing over a > single dropped message, and yet the aggregate amount of harm done by IP > based reputation services is tremendous. I would not want to reduce the situation to blacklists only. You use the correct term - IP based reputation services - but fail to mention that this includes whitelists, and that decisions other than "drop" can be made based upon data returned by such services. Regarding the "dropped message": While outside the scope of the DNSxL draft, it is pretty much consensus that messages should not be dropped in the sense of deleted or "stored in a seldomly reviewed quarantine folder", but that a clear SMTP 5xx error code should be returned. DNSBLs in conjunction with SMTP 5xx error codes actually increase the value of the overall email system by enhancing it's reliability. > receive. But they're not as likely to know about messages that they > never receive because of false positives, so of course they're less > likely to complain about them. And the cost (to sender or recipient) of > a message blocked for bogus reasons can be far higher than the cost to > the recipient of a spam. I believe it is generally agreed that false positives are the main risk with spam filter solutions. This applies both to individual tools like DNSxLs and to the "filtering machine" as a whole as perceived by the recipient (and the sender). No automated solution can guarantee the absence of false positives. On the other hand, the manual solution is far worse in terms of false positives, in my experience - the human error rate is pretty high when eg a spammy inbox must be reviewed manually. It is true that many spam filter solutions are short on "ham rules" which would offset erroneous (or bogus, as you chose to call it) "spam rules". The reason is obvious: most ham rules would be trivially to forge for a spammer -- something which is not practical with IP addresses. That's why IP addresses are so important for spam filter decisions, both for black- and for whitelisting. > And the relative number of complaints is not > a reliable indicator of those costs. It's probably the best indicator available? -- Matthias, for dnswl.org _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… John Levine
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… John L
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Dave CROCKER
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Sam Hartman
- The purpose of a Last Call Dave CROCKER
- RE: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Livingood, Jason
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Doug Otis
- Re: The purpose of a Last Call Pete Resnick
- Re: The purpose of a Last Call Sam Hartman
- Re: The purpose of a Last Call Leslie Daigle
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… ned+ietf
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Dave CROCKER
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Dave CROCKER
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… John Levine
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Chris Lewis
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… John Levine
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Paul Hoffman
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Doug Ewell
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Chris Lewis
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Chris Lewis
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Chris Lewis
- draft-irtf-asrg-bcp-blacklists John Leslie
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Theodore Tso
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… John Levine
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: draft-irtf-asrg-bcp-blacklists SM
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Theodore Tso
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… John Levine
- Re: draft-irtf-asrg-bcp-blacklists John Levine
- Re: draft-irtf-asrg-bcp-blacklists Chris Lewis
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… David Conrad
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… John C Klensin
- RE: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Livingood, Jason
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… John Levine
- RE: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Livingood, Jason
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Chris Lewis
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Chris Lewis
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Matthias Leisi
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- RE: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… michael.dillon
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Tony Hansen
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Chris Lewis
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Matthias Leisi
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… John Levine
- RE: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Livingood, Jason
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Dave CROCKER
- RE: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Steve Linford
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Tony Finch
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… der Mouse
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Tony Finch
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Tony Finch
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Tony Finch
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Tim Chown
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Theodore Tso
- RE: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… michael.dillon
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Steve Linford
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Lisa Dusseault
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Joe St Sauver
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Jamie Tomasello
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Tony Finch
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… der Mouse
- Re: draft-irtf-asrg-bcp-blacklists Rich Kulawiec
- IPv6 traffic stats (was: Re: Last Call: draft-irt… David Kessens
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Chris Lewis
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Keith Moore
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats Harald Alvestrand
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats Turchanyi Geza
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats Harald Alvestrand
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats Marc Manthey
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… SM
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats Pekka Savola
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats Harald Alvestrand
- RE: IPv6 traffic stats Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Tony Finch
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Tony Finch
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats Geoff Huston
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats Peter Sherbin
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats Pekka Savola
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats (was: Re: Last Call: draft… Danny McPherson
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats Danny McPherson
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats (was: Re: Last Call: draft… David Kessens
- RE: IPv6 traffic stats TJ
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats (was: Re: Last Call: draft… Danny McPherson
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats (was: Re: Last Call: draft… David Kessens
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats (was: Re: Last Call: draft… Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats - limitations of 6to4 Pekka Savola
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats Pekka Savola
- Re: IPv6 traffic stats - limitations of 6to4 Rémi Després
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Doug Otis
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Chris Lewis
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Florian Weimer
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Florian Weimer
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Florian Weimer
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Chris Lewis
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Florian Weimer
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… John Levine
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Florian Weimer
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (DNS Blackli… Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: draft-irtf-asrg-blinds (DNS Blackl… Chris Lewis