Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt ("Intellectual Property Rights in IETF Technology")
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Fri, 25 March 2016 21:55 UTC
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Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 17:55:07 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt ("Intellectual Property Rights in IETF Technology")
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--On Friday, March 25, 2016 16:41 -0400 Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu> wrote: >... > >> It's clear that any design team *output* is a > contribution. But >> if a group of friends have a chat > over lunch, not as a design >> team mandated by WG chairs, > and one of them mentions a silly idea >> that is rejected > in favour of a good idea that the group later >> proposes > to the WG, is that silly idea a contribution? I don't >> > think so. > > If it's a design team that thinks of itself as a design team, > I really want the silly idea to count as an IETF contribution. > If I get together with you to do IETF work, part of why I'm > willing to do so is because we've agreed that you'll disclose > any IP. If I'm doing IETF work with you, I want you to be > obligated to disclose by the time you're advocating for a > specific position. > > As an individual who may some day again contribute to the > IETF, that's really important to me. > > Now, there's ambiguity. I realize a group of friends involved > in the IETF can get together for purposes other than IETF work. > > However, speaking for myself, I'd be less willing to do work > in an IETF where a lunchtime discussion for IETF work didn't > count as contributions than one where it did. > > I think waiting for an idea to be presented in an ID, at the > microphone, or on a list is too late. > A lot of advocacy for positions happens before then, and you > can get in bad IPR situations if you are not required to > disclose by the time that advocacy starts. Ok, Sam, How do you feel about documents created in a group with some other name, even if all the participants are active in the IETF, creating an implementation or two, and then bringing the spec to the IETF and saying "standardize this, but the spec is fully-baked and deployed so you can't change it much without a lot of justification"? We've seen that happen multiple times. IMO, most of them were for other reasons but, if someone has bad intentions toward the IETF disclosure rules, that is the obvious mechanism for them to use and it results in much later disclosure than you would like, with no IETF ability to claim that people were obligated to disclose earlier. I think that is worse, but unavoidable. However, for the people with better intentions, I'd like to encourage voluntary disclosure as early as possible, reserving the specific rules and hair-splitting for the point at which the need to disclosure is clear and absolutely mandatory. YMMD... it is, IMO, really a question of whether we are willing to make technical tradeoffs or push work out entirely in order to be in a slightly better position relative to mandatory disclosures. john
- Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt ("In… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Russ Housley
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott Bradner
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott Bradner
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Russ Housley
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott O. Bradner
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Alissa Cooper
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … joel jaeggli
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Eggert, Lars
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Ben Campbell
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott Bradner
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … joel jaeggli
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … joel jaeggli
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Alissa Cooper
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Alissa Cooper
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … S Moonesamy
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Pete Resnick