Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"?

Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> Mon, 19 April 2021 21:14 UTC

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Subject: Re: What's the alternative to "snarling"?
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From: Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com>
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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:14:11 -0700
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On 4/19/21 2:00 PM, Keith Moore wrote:
> On 4/19/21 4:09 PM, Leif Johansson wrote:
>
>> On 2021-04-19 21:46, Keith Moore wrote:
>>> On 4/19/21 11:51 AM, Leif Johansson wrote:
>>>
>>>>> In other words, they can spend all of their time politely 
>>>>> explaining in detail why proposals are Bad Ideas, instead of 
>>>>> getting useful work done.
>>>> Point to where the useful work will be done if we don’t stop this.
>>> I don't want to either dismiss your concern (which I share) or sound 
>>> flippant, but I also wonder where the useful work will be done if we 
>>> DO stop this.
>> I appreciate your attempt to keep sticking to your point and trying 
>> to be serious
>> about it but... I just don't buy the IETF as the group of brilliant 
>> but tortured
>> souls who have "snarl" at each other to make themselves heard over 
>> the din of "Bad
>> Ideas".
>
> Well, again, I'm not even sure we're all talking about the same thing 
> when we use the word "snarling".   And while I'm pretty sure that we 
> need a way to push back on Bad Ideas, I'm not sure that what people 
> are calling "snarling" is only or even mostly about discouraging Bad 
> Ideas.   Maybe, for example, some of it is about "baggage" - old 
> resentments for hard-fought battles lost, perceived insults, or even 
> genuinely bad behavior.
>
Since I was the one who introduced "snarling" to the conversation 
(sheesh, do I get a gold star or what?), what I was referring to was 
coming with, say, security concerns and in my case the document author 
quite literally snarled at me, or as best you can tell over email. I 
feel somewhat vindicated since they ended up writing an entire 
informational RFC on what I pointed out as being a no-no, but nobody 
cares in the real world and the vulnerability is still there out in the 
wild to be exploited. In that particular case there was a *huge* amount 
of incentive to sweep it under the rug, and that's exactly what happened.

Mike