Re: Barely literate minutes (was: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists")
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Wed, 28 November 2012 20:54 UTC
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 15:53:43 -0500
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: SM <sm@resistor.net>
Subject: Re: Barely literate minutes (was: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists")
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--On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 03:28 -0800 SM <sm@resistor.net> wrote: > At 01:25 28-11-2012, John C Klensin wrote: >> This is, IMO, a consequence of our developing fancy tools and >> then uncritically relying on them. A Jabber log or real-time >> Etherpad may be, and probably is, a very helpful way to keep >> real-time notes within a meeting but some WGs have substituted >> nearly-unedited versions of them (especially the latter) for >> minutes. They are not minutes, certainly not minutes as > > Yes. > > Nobody likes to write minutes. Very few people volunteer > their free time to do them (thanks to John Leslie for scribing > the IESG minutes). When there is a discussion about producing > minutes people come up with proposals for fancy tools. This > is where someone says: "Etherpad can do that". There is a > moment of silence when somebody finds out that there's nobody > using Etherpad to take notes about what's going on. Who would > have thought that these fancy tools cannot work without > people? :-) > >> contemplated by RFC 2418, and I sincerely hope that the IESG >> and the community push back on those "barely literate" notes >> before there is an appeal against a WG decision or document >> approval that is based, even in part, on failure of the WG to >> comply with that 2418 requirement. > > The community is too lethargic to push back on those "barely > literate" notes. One of these days there will be such an > appeal. Let me be clear. For most WGs and purposes, most of the time, the "minutes" are the minutes and I'm certainly not going to be the one who makes a big fuss about clarity or literacy unless they are so incomplete and incompetent that posting them becomes a joke. _However_ if a WG wants to make/be an exception to the principle that consensus has to be demonstrated on the mailing list and instead wants to rely on face to face discussions, than that WG is, IMO, obligated to have minutes complete and comprehensible enough that someone who did not participate in the meeting, even remotely, can determine what went on and why and hence whether the proposed solution or agreement is acceptable. If the WG cannot produce such minutes, then I think it is obligated to be able to demonstrate consensus from the mailing list discussions alone. Rather clear tradeoff, IMO. john
- "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Barry Leiba
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Marc Blanchet
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" joel jaeggli
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" ned+ietf
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" t.p.
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Melinda Shore
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Andrew Sullivan
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Geoff Huston
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" David Meyer
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" John C Klensin
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" SM
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" David Morris
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Joe Touch
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Hector Santos
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" John Leslie
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Donald Eastlake
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Brian E Carpenter
- RE: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" John C Klensin
- Barely literate minutes (was: "IETF work is done … SM
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Randy Bush
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Yoav Nir
- RE: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" tglassey
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Keith Moore
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Dave Crocker
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Eliot Lear
- Pre-IETF work ( was - Re: "IETF work is done on t… Dave Crocker
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Barely literate minutes (was: "IETF work is d… John C Klensin
- Re: Barely literate minutes Scott Brim
- Re: Barely literate minutes Sam Hartman
- Re: Barely literate minutes Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Barely literate minutes Dave Crocker
- Re: Barely literate minutes Sam Hartman
- Re: Barely literate minutes Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Barely literate minutes Pete Resnick
- Re: Barely literate minutes Randy Bush
- Re: Barely literate minutes Dave Crocker
- Re: Barely literate minutes SM
- Re: Barely literate minutes Bob Hinden
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Geoff Huston
- Re: Barely literate minutes John C Klensin
- RE: Barely literate minutes Hutton, Andrew
- Re: Barely literate minutes t.p.
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Eliot Lear
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Alessandro Vesely
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Edward Lewis
- Re: Barely literate minutes Barry Leiba
- Re: Barely literate minutes Dave Crocker
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" SM
- RE: Barely literate minutes Lee Howard
- Re: Barely literate minutes Randy Bush
- Re: Barely literate minutes Pete Resnick
- Re: Barely literate minutes Suresh Krishnan
- Re: Barely literate minutes Fernando Gont
- Re: Barely literate minutes Keith Moore
- PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely lit… Keith Moore
- Re: Barely literate minutes Dave Crocker
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Randall Gellens
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Randy Bush
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Melinda Shore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Randall Gellens
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… SM
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… John C Klensin
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… John C Klensin
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… John Levine
- English spoken here (was: PowerPoint considered h… SM
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: English spoken here (was: PowerPoint consider… John C Klensin
- Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken here) Dave Crocker
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… John C Klensin
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Dave Crocker
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Melinda Shore
- Presentation vs. Discussion sessions (was: PowerP… Keith Moore
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions Melinda Shore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Randall Gellens
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions Keith Moore
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions Melinda Shore
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions Keith Moore
- Acculturation [was Re: PowerPoint considered harm… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: English spoken here (was: PowerPoint consider… SM
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Randy Bush
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Randy Bush
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Dave Crocker
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Melinda Shore
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Tim Chown
- RE: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… George, Wes
- RE: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… George, Wes
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- RE: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… George, Wes
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Tim Chown
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: English spoken here (was: PowerPoint consider… Steven Bellovin
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Tony Hansen
- RE: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Lee Howard
- Re: English spoken here Keith Moore
- Re: English spoken here Steven Bellovin
- Re: English spoken here John C Klensin
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions (was: Po… Randall Gellens