Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing participation (was Re: Remote participation fees)
Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> Fri, 27 February 2015 05:12 UTC
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 21:12:20 -0800
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Subject: Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing participation (was Re: Remote participation fees)
From: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
To: Eric Burger <eburger-l@standardstrack.com>
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Thanks. IMHO participants in IETF are in two categories: individuals and companies, both needs to have diversity. I think IETF has shortage in remote participants and in diversity, so the strategy is that no fees because IETF needs more diversity. However, the issue in my thoughts is not remote or non-remote or ability to pay or not (diversity items), but the issue can be about benefits, cost and payment return/outcome. For example, usually remote participants attend but the outcome is less than others. In business and organisation what matters is utilization of time, money, and attendance. People in business meet for many reasons and different methods. All IETF participants attending meeting physically have different utilization but pay the same fee. I think that makes limited attendance. Now days Internet services changing to you pay for what you use only, so could IETF offer that? Let us focus on participant outcome (individual or organisation) from the IETF meeting and then think about the fees to be added or increased per category. IETF may need to look into that to manage participants' satisfactions and expectations. I think companies that use and benefit from IETF services should not be treated similar to individual participant. I suggest that companies participating (i.e. company name is written in the WG draft) should/may pay fees specific for that session utilization of IETF. AB IETF Participant from Africa On Wednesday, February 25, 2015, Eric Burger <eburger-l@standardstrack.com> wrote: > Mea culpa! > > My fault for not being articulate. I was responding to the discussion > thread, and happened to chose this one to staple the reply to. I in no way > meant to infer that Ted (or Dave or anyone else) was advocating that the > IETF should be excluding people. In this case, the impression (which Ted > pointed out to me) was that I was saying that he wanted to exclude people > based on ability to pay. Ted and I discussed this off-list, and we are in > violent agreement. I did not think he was advocating for that, and I do not > want anyone to advocate for that. > > Moving forward, what I was hoping to avoid was for people to think that > because the IETF conference fees defer the costs of operating the IETF (the > meeting itself, the secretariat, and a portion of the RFC Editor), that we > have to try to squeeze every penny from all sources. That is not > necessarily a bad mindset to have: we should be striving to be independent > on the largesse of the Internet Society and their contributors if we can > manage it. That is not an infinite pot of cash, and no one wants to be > beholden to a single funding source. However, what I wanted to get out to > the community is the message that the Internet Society believes deeply in > expanding access to the IETF and the IETF process. If charging for remote > access inhibits participation (the unfortunate ‘paywall’ comment), then I > would have no problem at all suggesting the IETF (IAOC in specific) ask the > Internet Society to fund remote participation. I think the Board (speaking > as an individual, NOT in my role as an Internet Society Trustee) would > treat such a request sympathetically. > > I can see this could be a dynamic situation. I can envision a time when we > as the IETF are truly successful and develop fantastic real-time > communication protocols that are easy to deploy, cost almost nothing, and > are secure. At that point, one would *hope* in-person IETF meetings become > a relic of history. Maybe we would meet once per year or every other year > to reminisce about how the only way to get work done was to spend thousands > of dollars of cash per year and an uncountable amount of cost for travel > time to physically meet in the same location. How 20th Century! At that > point, I would expect surpluses from meeting fees would be nonexistent, and > we would need to figure alternate means of funding. However, that day seems > to be far enough away that charging for remote participation should be a > remote possibility for the foreseeable future. > > > On Feb 24, 2015, at 9:24 PM, Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com > <javascript:;>> wrote: > > > > On Feb 24, 2015, at 8:32 PM, Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com > <javascript:;>> wrote: > >> The last thing we need as we are just beginning to have success > reaching out beyond North American, European, Japanese, S. Korean, and > Australian mid-size to large corporations is to toss up a paywall, some as > much as a month’s salary or more, for the ‘privilege’ of contributing to > the IETF. > > > > You know, it's really frustrating when you participate in a discussion, > try to contribute helpfully, and then essentially get accused of being a > blithering idiot by someone who didn't bother to consider the possibility > that you might not be. I'm sure you've had that experience too. Heck, > I've been the one who assumed the other person was an idiot too, so I can > relate. > > > > Anyway, if you think I was proposing a paywall, please go back and > re-read what I actually wrote, and the rest of the discussion that > followed, with the presumption in mind that I did _not_ mean to propose any > such thing (because I didn't!), and see if the discussion still works, or > if you find something I or someone else said that contradicts that > assumption. > > > > Thanks. > > > >
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- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
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- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Mary Barnes
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- Re: Remote participation fees John Leslie
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… John C Klensin
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- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Dave Cridland
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- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… John C Klensin
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- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Randy Bush
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Randy Bush
- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Scott Kitterman
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- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Michael Richardson
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- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Dave Cridland
- RE: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- Re: Remote participation fees Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote participation fees Stewart Bryant
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- RE: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… James Gannon
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Carlos Vera Quintana
- Re: Remote participation fees [Re: Updating BCP 1… Carlos Vera Quintana
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
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- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom ELEGIBILITY Michael Richardson
- Re: Updating BCP 10 -- NomCom Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Remote participation fees Eric Burger
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Yoav Nir
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Remote participation fees Tim Chown
- Re: Remote participation fees Ted Lemon
- 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing par… Eric Burger
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Ted Lemon
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Dave Crocker
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- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Remote participation fees Nico Williams
- Re: Remote participation fees Nico Williams
- Re: Remote participation fees John C Klensin
- "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing the w… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Benson Schliesser
- Re: Remote participation fees Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Yoav Nir
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work John C Klensin
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Alia Atlas
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Mary Barnes
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Dave Crocker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Nico Williams
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Andy Bierman
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benson Schliesser
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work John C Klensin
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Thomas D. Nadeau
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Lou Berger
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Brian E Carpenter
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Nico Williams
- RE: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Christer Holmberg
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Alia Atlas
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: "Blue sheets" [ Interim meetings - changing t… t.p.
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Mary Barnes
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Nico Williams
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Stephen Farrell
- Re: sweets to the sweet, was 'Paywall, ' IETF sel… John Levine
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… l.wood
- Re: 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency, increasing… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Randy Bush
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… John C Klensin
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… joel jaeggli
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Pranesh Prakash
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Diversity] 'Paywall, ' IETF self-sufficiency… Dave Cridland
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Andy Bierman
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work Benoit Claise
- Re: Interim meetings - changing the way we work t.p.