Re: Ancient history [Re: ipv4 and ipv6 Coexistence.]

George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org> Wed, 26 February 2020 22:47 UTC

Return-Path: <ggm@algebras.org>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF7093A09B3 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:47:09 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.9
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mQyO0jrZsSKs for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:47:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE51E3A09AA for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:47:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id 13so1047528iou.1 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:47:07 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DTfA1X8ZD2U27tjYq4pGQRZMw75IPDYJgCBxytrSAaA=; b=Z1lP8SN82fCSCGN6TL0hS4syeI/BmRNhmzlnH7ZQrAQ6k2+AsyOuX1Gal3JfOqq6Gl DAxD4dqUFo9XDraecHkpktcMpfB9mYDZE32JOXpfkbAviorZpRiHhqj2HX0Nz+rxJEve l5N+MToSDMpTH/UxA1ysr0cOPHm+KVaDQDV5PVW5qY7rJElh0nKlnsWwcvTvH1XbDNwn dMlkL9PyIh0/d7EXSucizQsz2pqk5qsawg67ZUMdyOuAEJMizHytDFqopTCI9mTmkw75 NICM//MhKKjgDPAqRMBXnBJdRyUP9cbXt+SSEleHSgyifSQQbJm2jD76Jhgw/yavq0GA YD8w==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DTfA1X8ZD2U27tjYq4pGQRZMw75IPDYJgCBxytrSAaA=; b=NyENvJYDKLZ/Pu02c18sQBpkisXrZ0svAbX2McuS2KDnI5o+UPFKfaa1XfvPiy4dMp KQ0PmMsPPw582FG+jg9eVGrkN5Yy+5NmJOHFSEFeUXT9YRu+wEakMbj2JnTuGt+S8uBb oWTOwnvOXMrD6Pcf1yQHO1aOiITKQJyR8DolwGcMPRw58db9++eCXzSJ7Les61SVmL3N LeQYN4EiMAAQj9AAZ2HQlUBpyt+n5bfcohBxoNxePSnk/bUfNQ5YKQh7P1Clsq/o6Pnz SF1YAMeCTwm2QbHzSS+c7oZYzDcELxCs196An71kx+dK3bpXQG6ypxp3kUItwN3JEv8i AWcQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXF/dyntxmKtyODG4lj/OGhg+U89rK3qtnOob2A1zEwtyQBQ1Ph Ktwia1Qrr5hMfnPj/XdR51PiThsKXPRPXDN5i5Uggg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy1CGcybn5Nsfvo3PGqDzRFzeI1fA5CLE2VzFY+2vq8ibRhSsUttubQnJXXC/3oM5mVnSGOUZYpBg471rh+M9I=
X-Received: by 2002:a6b:c98c:: with SMTP id z134mr1062032iof.106.1582757227082; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:47:07 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <PR3P194MB0843ACAE01F33CEC57266A1AAE100@PR3P194MB0843.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <EDAE6375-EE0B-4864-9834-C1FBC209D581@sobco.com> <PR3P194MB08431E138262F2A43C1D0621AE100@PR3P194MB0843.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <8ADEA0E1-291A-4400-9925-F65A26116372@consulintel.es> <PR3P194MB0843939F3B38426960A66E70AE130@PR3P194MB0843.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <D8063303-7DDA-41F8-A63A-C0244E3E9E25@isc.org> <AB27A3D9EB2EA6D6C3A31351@PSB> <BBCA5D24-2DFA-4DE8-A474-8CBA06BF152E@gmail.com> <5E5640DC.50109@btconnect.com> <071BA479-2772-42FE-8952-8A8550DC6BFB@gmail.com> <0fd1d1b1-a7e9-1eea-5d7a-99159f388ff2@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <0fd1d1b1-a7e9-1eea-5d7a-99159f388ff2@gmail.com>
From: George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:46:55 +1000
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn1YrRaeOi4uVRb+sWxMgJ8FtTBB56Fk-DQoeSp0YdyH6g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ancient history [Re: ipv4 and ipv6 Coexistence.]
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, tom petch <daedulus@btconnect.com>, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, IETF Rinse Repeat <ietf@ietf.org>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/BUqx-MZzeMONE-bqnxjrYoqG3SM>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 22:47:10 -0000

There is control, and there is soft control. Soft control we live with
all the time. the funder can decline to continue funding. The
facilities can stop being free. Visa assistance, motivations can move.

I think early Internet had people there from government armed forces
computing/networking contexts. Why do I think this? Because the UK end
of the ARPA/SATNET link split, with a feed to the MOD. And, because
Jon Crowcroft regailed me with tales of a spookish man with medal
ribbons out to the left of his chest, pontificating at the various
meetings held at SRI. A large tranche of the UK IPv4 address space
vested with the MOD.

I think we had soft control. Not hard. The money tap was known and
understood. Some things were done with nudges to people who otherwise
might not have opened doors, or taps. Nobody I know had wired down
contract issues enforcing military/government goals, but directing
traffic to the UK defence department as well as the academic
community, and to government telecommunications research laboratories
(Estriel, was pre-privatization BT work as I recall and there was
still a regulated mandate on communications trunks and bearers which
demands the GPO and BT agreed to do things to you, that were not
scheduled communications)

SATNET was far from ordinary. You don't just rock up and get a feed
into a satellite network.

Soft control is ubiquitous. Computer Aided Instruction took funds from
NATO, and ran workshops all through Europe in the 70s and 80s. Nobody
doing HCI in those times was unaware of interest from these people.
The 5th Generation Alvey project had specific drives to use GEC in
projects, even when the machine was a classic 'halt and catch fire'
design.