Re: Security for various IETF services
Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> Fri, 04 April 2014 02:04 UTC
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Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 19:02:39 -0700
From: Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net>
Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Security for various IETF services
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On 4/3/2014 5:26 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I think we need to distinguish various > quite separate issues. Off the top of my head, I can see: What I like most about Brian's list is that it seeks to gain some discipline an clarity about what might be done and why. As Ned's responses shows, this requires even more clarity and -- depending on what answers we give -- different difficulty. On 4/3/2014 5:29 PM, Randy Bush wrote: > because we blew it way back when, by designing a completely insecure > and un-private internet. as supposedly responsible and occasionally > competent engineers, we should rectify our mistakes. This promotes a collection of popular myths which both give a false history and a false (and counter-productively distracting) present. The presumption that 'security' was ignored "way back" is simply wrong. Both in the 70s and again in the 90s, security issues were given attention. In the 70s, the primary answer was encryption boxes, for those special cases deem to need them. In terms of the technology of the day, when combined with the nature of the scale and use of the Arpanet and eventually Internet, that was a reasonable choice. In the 90s, we got PEM, PGP, S/MIME and the beginnings of DNSSec. The experience of the 90s nicely highlights the problem with the second myth, that we merely needed to 'decide' to do 'security'. As the increasing list of problematic security-related efforts over the last 25 years demonstrate, doing 'security' for Internet scale and diversity is a challenge, often appearing to be beyond the state of the art. Note how little DNSSec we still have. Note how little PGP and S/MIME use we still have. All three of those were diligent, reasonable design efforts. Yet their deployment and use remains problematic. Added to this is that the word 'security' is almost completely meaningless in technical terms. For most technical discussions, it's so vague there's no way to know what specific problems are of concern or what functions are intended. So please, let's focus on the kind of disciplined, targeted effort that Brian is promoting to consider needs and solutions, and move away from mythology. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
- Security for various IETF services Stephen Farrell
- RE: Security for various IETF services l.wood
- RE: Security for various IETF services Randall Gellens
- Re: Security for various IETF services Fred Baker (fred)
- RE: Security for various IETF services ned+ietf
- Re: Security for various IETF services Dave Crocker
- Re: Security for various IETF services Randall Gellens
- Re: Security for various IETF services Pranesh Prakash
- Re: Security for various IETF services Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Security for various IETF services Douglas Otis
- RE: Security for various IETF services l.wood
- Re: Security for various IETF services Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Security for various IETF services Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Security for various IETF services Randy Bush
- Re: Security for various IETF services Scott Brim
- RE: Security for various IETF services l.wood
- Re: Security for various IETF services ned+ietf
- Re: Security for various IETF services Dave Crocker
- Re: Security for various IETF services Randy Bush
- Re: Security for various IETF services Randall Gellens
- Re: Security for various IETF services Martin Rex
- RE: Security for various IETF services l.wood
- Re: Security for various IETF services t.p.
- Re: Security for various IETF services John C Klensin
- Re: Security for various IETF services Ted Lemon
- Re: Security for various IETF services John C Klensin
- Re: Security for various IETF services Dick Franks
- Re: Security for various IETF services Hector Santos
- Re: Security for various IETF services Dick Franks
- Re: Security for various IETF services Hector Santos
- Re: Security for various IETF services Dick Franks
- RE: Security for various IETF services l.wood
- Re: Security for various IETF services Pranesh Prakash
- Re: Security for various IETF services Martin Thomson
- Re: Security for various IETF services John C Klensin
- Re: Security for various IETF services Stewart Bryant (stbryant)
- RE: Security for various IETF services l.wood
- Re: Security for various IETF services Hector Santos
- RE: Security for various IETF services l.wood
- Re: Security for various IETF services ned+ietf
- Re: Security for various IETF services Tim Bray
- Re: Security for various IETF services Stephen Farrell
- Re: Security for various IETF services Dick Franks
- Re: Security for various IETF services Stephen Farrell
- RE: Security for various IETF services l.wood
- Re: Security for various IETF services David Morris
- RE: Security for various IETF services Christian Huitema
- RE: Security for various IETF services l.wood
- Re[2]: Security for various IETF services mohammed serrhini
- RE: Security for various IETF services l.wood
- Re: Security for various IETF services Randy Bush
- RE: Security for various IETF services l.wood
- Re: Security for various IETF services S Moonesamy
- Re: Security for various IETF services Stewart Bryant
- Re: Security for various IETF services Stewart Bryant
- Re: Security for various IETF services Brian Trammell
- Re: Security for various IETF services Stewart Bryant
- Re: Security for various IETF services Stewart Bryant
- Re: Security for various IETF services Stewart Bryant
- Re: Security for various IETF services Stephen Farrell
- Re: Security for various IETF services Ted Lemon
- Re: Security for various IETF services John C Klensin
- Re: Security for various IETF services Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Security for various IETF services Stewart Bryant
- Re: Security for various IETF services Ted Lemon
- RE: Security for various IETF services l.wood
- RE: Security for various IETF services Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE)
- RE: Security for various IETF services Eric Gray
- Re: Security for various IETF services t.p.
- Re: Security for various IETF services Scott Brim
- Re: Security for various IETF services Ted Lemon
- Re: Security for various IETF services Dick Franks
- Re: Security for various IETF services Phillip Hallam-Baker
- RE: Security for various IETF services l.wood
- Re: Security for various IETF services Yoav Nir
- Re: Security for various IETF services Stephen Farrell
- RE: Security for various IETF services l.wood
- RE: Security for various IETF services l.wood
- Re: Security for various IETF services Stephen Farrell
- Re: Security for various IETF services Yoav Nir
- Re: Security for various IETF services Noel Chiappa
- Re: Security for various IETF services Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Security for various IETF services Dave Crocker
- Re: Security for various IETF services Ted Lemon
- Re: Security for various IETF services Theodore Ts'o
- Re: Security for various IETF services Tim Bray
- Re: Security for various IETF services Steve Crocker
- Re: Security for various IETF services Dave Cridland
- Re: Security for various IETF services Randall Gellens
- Re: Security for various IETF services Dave Crocker
- Re: Security for various IETF services Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Security for various IETF services Stephen Farrell
- Re: Security for various IETF services Theodore Ts'o
- Re: Security for various IETF services Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Security for various IETF services Ted Lemon
- Re: Security for various IETF services Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Security for various IETF services Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Web of trust at Internet Scale Sam Hartman
- Re: Security for various IETF services Dave Cridland
- Re: Security for various IETF services Dave Cridland
- Re: Security for various IETF services Mark Andrews
- Re: Security for various IETF services Theodore Ts'o
- Re: Security for various IETF services Jelte Jansen
- Re: Security for various IETF services Stephen Kent