IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: Question about BCP 14 / RFC 8174

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Tue, 26 August 2025 20:54 UTC

Return-Path: <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@mail2.ietf.org
Delivered-To: ietf@mail2.ietf.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C86E595CEF6 for <ietf@mail2.ietf.org>; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 13:54:00 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NudRGT9qGp-s for <ietf@mail2.ietf.org>; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 13:54:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf1-x42a.google.com (mail-pf1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1125C595CEF1 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 13:54:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-77057c4d88bso2589458b3a.2 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 13:54:00 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1756241639; x=1756846439; darn=ietf.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=e2k6swMinYmAo2V37DjX2wt57Zrn+3IMpHhLNC26ENE=; b=Ykid4zQ6pqYow9kCJMMlk3odrx+zU6xnmJ4rVySBibAPnF2JeuYxz28VnAgfRJRwzz PL6PSG3M6imYt0XIJ5hrcK/ykLR2CscfxV/QiytoYEoR5OAuW0gQt2rhyOms5t2QA8QO Y+A7ypNYOzxunPC/V2zJFDVLtrmppfbGtY7kECt7jOothFysxVD+A7hmJPH8MlGMrElf 3mXVybTLTt9UUWxxfPHuwQ8tvudLVQOa2+jHyAa/tRViUKdl1vosWDZAHwwO0uy1UsWU w9xFzGiJ85oFC8Sb4NkGwZPO3y/dzpTTdkIpwFMZlMmudFCJzhHBozBW0+GxAj4SSZ6s OkUg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1756241639; x=1756846439; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=e2k6swMinYmAo2V37DjX2wt57Zrn+3IMpHhLNC26ENE=; b=vm5UK9Vj2aKTxdZVZpdxzepEh4r07bniPlkwAqldWfLW7V4uB3JyYjEFbivOL81aKp 8tD7hhbdhYgGnA0dmstVupGI0fg2eiBSLFf/QrYCUnEp5VyythEJ3x7ZRHuiDjLBYDRt Ak3iZKLhAj2IGd+nuQKqCRLnGHMIXfKo9hJCmfinjqejpLMJS884hjsrRARvSPg1vDl/ Es8p9d9qDPjth4GN/F8LUscjCrtDL5F6fVRiVYak9W7oG8RMhHZS00dQkfilJhVYGzPf LdYSeFSg0MSdWLeRRNQ+d/4Nzh4CU9Hkei8UhdxLpk7lFQbytJD9T3AvxQ4hyNg57qOy jXhQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxYvt136zBOR1VHCuEUO55HHUxg8g5mZdI5b6DwSNWwTWxanADl uTdWKCwXCVvZVlIMih9W4CN9j7yWyZ+48iygwvk3nqQofjORIgWRyyTAmPZB6A==
X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnct5RORgQptbMvm08mtLPJ50SAd1Tucmid1rNoa9QgvrzzaVWHmKgFGVTRYf0qT KP1AutaBjgc8+N1vkLW2tdO0u7APnnTr8POjz5uCNXyYSiQQI76H8U/0YqAS4HUV20G+PloDe13 dBh7SvMfy3AfBcUAcuFVFEVWhT4Z+PiZBx01IaEJJ8ubJKym8M4/GTxzaX5S63ent2BWtv3ti0l zvHmFgYGrC/i5o9h+dVf+i/FPh6HkuLNt+x210k/f1S80klZooNmgcDniYSLhskqzO9Rol/+88D pUMZBskELuVSEACwRSxpwixPENwh+d3kA/bOlsxcSSjc2k7NciYTJtlq4l02fBKQf/qhoP+72/q PJ/K6fCiXqAPddZj7jhd/KB1hYhs6Cg+3cfTn2lQ0TmazwOOdUeTxge+woWDHArxieHs66oofea BICkvinVPaaOdrSg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFcqHEK9zP8yvixR7LCSWG/Z1g3DV5ETdSLFYBjIUmbmbtfyRwxSkr9FUhfl35+3iCHly2USQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:140f:b0:736:3ea8:4805 with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-7702fa10349mr21958905b3a.7.1756241639135; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 13:53:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPV6:2404:4400:541d:a600:44b7:2c2e:2bc6:8707? ([2404:4400:541d:a600:44b7:2c2e:2bc6:8707]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d2e1a72fcca58-7704021512bsm11289750b3a.90.2025.08.26.13.53.57 for <ietf@ietf.org> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 26 Aug 2025 13:53:58 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <9953f535-672f-49de-8b8f-9e1a471d97b8@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 08:53:56 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Subject: Re: Question about BCP 14 / RFC 8174
Content-Language: en-US
To: ietf@ietf.org
References: <aKzK5qdwLUHSa3JL@ubby> <CAC4RtVASn123qUSuFZg50wL4Nrjebz=QMf5AU=jeZLgQd5fsDg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAC4RtVASn123qUSuFZg50wL4Nrjebz=QMf5AU=jeZLgQd5fsDg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Message-ID-Hash: D2OQQDJCL3VORI4IQCL56E3GAKICHUQT
X-Message-ID-Hash: D2OQQDJCL3VORI4IQCL56E3GAKICHUQT
X-MailFrom: brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-ietf.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
List-Id: "IETF-Discussion. This is the most general IETF mailing list, intended for discussion of technical, procedural, operational, and other topics for which no dedicated mailing lists exist." <ietf.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/C1_nWjpuJGstS4vxkM8E5XYC_bI>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:ietf-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:ietf-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-leave@ietf.org>

On 27-Aug-25 03:17, Barry Leiba wrote:
> You're not noticing that the OLD text also talks only about IETF
> documents by saying "many standards track documents".  The NEW text is
> intentionally broader, including all IETF documents -- Informational
> and Experimental as well.  That's because we've realized over time
> that it's useful to include BCP 14 key words in those also, not just
> in standards.

Yes. Personally I would always think carefully about whether to use
them apart from the standards track, and they have sometimes been
confusing when used in documents that are not protocol definitions,
but there's no value in attempting to prohibit them.
  
> It was not intentional to say that *only* IETF documents use these.
> But we're only writing, here, about and for the IETF, and BCP 14 only
> explicitly applies to the IETF.

Again, yes. If they prove useful for a non-IETF RFC, that's fine.

As far as non-RFC documents go, I don't know about RFC 8174, but
RFC 2119 has been cited by hundreds, if not thousands, of other
documents. (Random example: "Openid provider authentication
policy extension 1.0" from 2008.) I don't know how many of them
really use "SHOULD" or "RECOMMENDED" correctly.

    Brian

> 
> Barry
> 
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2025 at 4:44 PM Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> wrote:
>>
>> I guess I've been hiding under a rock or something and missed RFC 8174.
>> I was... surprised to see that the NEW text specifically refers to "many
>> IETF documents" considering that many non-IETF documents also make use
>> of BCP 14 terminology.
>>
>> Of course anyone making use of BCP 14 outside IETF documents can just
>> either not mind or elide the IETF specificity, so maybe "who cares".
>> But I find this change surprising, and odd.
>>
>> Nico
>> --
>>
>

v2.34.0 | Report a Bug | By Email | System Status