Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt
Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Wed, 20 October 2021 20:34 UTC
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Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt
To: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
References: <163474046003.5194.1851617977740027365@ietfa.amsl.com> <2a65cc6e-3a39-d209-491f-f4ad67cca151@gmail.com> <56F811BE6546B57096E171B6@PSB>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f7d31a4d-344e-9a7d-7397-7984c958f340@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:34:48 +1300
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Well, I am not convinced. *Guidance* to NomCom along these lines would be a fine idea, but a firm rule, IMHO, would over-constrain an already constrained solution. Regards Brian On 21-Oct-21 09:29, John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Thursday, October 21, 2021 08:32 +1300 Brian E Carpenter > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Well, this is a bad idea that was repeatedly rejected in the >> past. > > Brian, I believe that hard limits were rejected in the past for > two reasons: > > (i) There will certainly be specific cases for which they are > the wrong answer. We can imagine many such cases. > > (ii) There has been at least a suspicion in the community that > the IESG is opposed to anything that would put additional > constraints on incumbents (e.g., themselves). > >> Why? Because it's always hard to fill all the positions, and >> this would make it harder. > > I suggest there is a different way to look at that. If we have > a position that cannot be filled by someone able, willing, > competent, and with adequate time and resources, a Nomcom would > be doing the community a big favor by not filling it and thereby > forcing a review of whether we need that position, whether the > role that position is supposed to satisfy is correctly defined > for needs at the time or whether some reorganization would serve > us better, whether our ambitions for what should be done are > realistic, and so on. Probably the same principle should apply > when there is only one candidate whom the Nomcom (or other > appointing body) would not consider acceptable if there were any > other choices. > > As a specific example that has come up before, if there is an > area with two ADs and one of those slots cannot be filled, it > should trigger a review of whether that area can get by on one > AD, whether we need the Area at all any more (so that the remain > AD should be charged with winding it down), whether some of the > WGs in the Area should be trimmed, and whether the IESG is in > need of a reorganization. > > Moving forward with a least-bad candidate because it was hard to > recruit people may help patch a problem but I suggest it is bad > for the IETF in the long term. > > And that suggests there is actually value in term limits: if we > know, a year in advance, that a position will be open, it allows > far more time to think about candidates, twist arms, line up > resources, etc., and even whether some of the above thinking > about the organization or the Area or the IETF would be in > order. in addition, telling organizations who support > Nomcom-selected people during their terms that it for a maximum > of two such terms might make it easier to get agreement than if > it is a potential lifetime commitment (assuming, of course, that > organizations are not supporting people for those positions > because of a belief that having people in them brings prestige, > credibility, or power to the company). > > >> If someone is incompetent, NomCom will not reappoint them even >> once, let alone twice. >> >> We all agree that ossification is unwelcome, but artificial >> turnover is not the way to avoid that. > > I think we have seen people who have ossified in place but who > are then selected for an additional term before retiring or > being forced out. I agree that rigid term limits are not the > right solution, but hoping the Nomcom will figure it out may not > be the optimal solution either. > > Finally, the "one term out" rule in Rich's proposal ensures > rotation, not retirement, and there is a difference. Even a > person who has done a great job might benefit from some time in > the community between terms... and the community would almost > certainly benefit from the more recent and closer to bottom-up > perspective on what it takes to get work done in the IETF. > > best, > john >
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt John C Klensin
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Brian E Carpenter
- RE: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Adrian Farrel
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Salz, Rich
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt John C Klensin
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Jared Mauch
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt John Levine
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Keith Moore
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Carsten Bormann
- RE: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Jared Mauch
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Joel M. Halpern
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Salz, Rich
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Joel M. Halpern
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Salz, Rich
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Joel M. Halpern
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Michael Richardson
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt tom petch
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Michael StJohns
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Barry Leiba
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Keith Moore
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt John Levine
- Workload constants [was I-D Action: draft-rsalz-t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Workload constants [was I-D Action: draft-rsa… Keith Moore
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt tom petch
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Workload constants [was I-D Action: draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- Re: Workload constants [was I-D Action: draft-rsa… Keith Moore
- Re: Workload constants [was I-D Action: draft-rsa… Christian Huitema
- Re: Workload constants [was I-D Action: draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- Re: Workload constants [was I-D Action: draft-rsa… Keith Moore
- Re: Workload constants [was I-D Action: draft-rsa… Colin Perkins
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Mary B
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Mary B
- Re: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-termlimits-00.txt Salz, Rich