Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side meeting at IETF105.)
Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Thu, 04 July 2019 15:32 UTC
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 08:31:47 -0700
Message-ID: <CABcZeBOw6w2tm4YYFdmLwC23ufPDupt2D1Vzwjn4Pi9bbf6R-w@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side meeting at IETF105.)
To: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
Cc: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>, IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
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I largely agree with Nico's take here. Ignoring labelling for a moment, in a number of WGs (HTTP, TLS, and QUIC) we have found it necessary to have full implementations and large-scale deployments quite early in the design process, long before anyone thinks that the document is done. Common practice has become something like this: 1. Once the draft has become complete enough that it's possible to do so, start doing test implementations based on labelled versions of the draft and try to interop those. 2. Once the draft has become complete enough that it's believed to be safe, do coordinated field trials based on identified versions of the draft. This may include, for instance, deploying to a large fraction of the user base (e.g., all Firefox Beta users or a fraction of the Firefox release population) and/or to a big server farm (e.g., Cloudflare's users). We use version identifiers that are associated with the draft number to avoid interop problems. 3. Once the document is published at PS, switch over to the final version (which is usually nearly identical to the last draft version). This does not really fit into the PS/DS model: We absolutely need to deploy early versions to find potential issues (this was critical to TLS 1.3) but we all know that those documents don't meet the PS bar as they may have known defects or at least open issues. There's also no real use for Full Standard. The market doesn't care about it and the people who are doing the work either are (1) fixing/extending the protocol (using the process above) or (2) have moved onto some other protocol. It's not clear to me how well this Evolving Documents proposal would fit into such a model [0], but I thought a field report on what is becoming common practice might be useful. -Ekr [0] The real need I find is to be able to make minor fixes to the documents (mostly editorial errata or clarification of points on which there was consensus) without re-spinning the RFC, which people don't have the energy for. On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 10:24 PM Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> wrote: > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 09:52:03PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: > > On 7/3/19 9:30 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > > > > > difficulties. It used to be clear that you didn't deploy > implementations > > > > based on Proposed Standard, but people did anyway. > > > When was that "clear"? > > > > Probably I was thinking of RFC2026 section 4.1.1, last paragraph: > > > > Implementors should treat Proposed Standards as immature > > specifications. It is desirable to implement them in order to gain > > experience and to validate, test, and clarify the specification. > > However, since the content of Proposed Standards may be changed if > > problems are found or better solutions are identified,/deploying > > implementations of such standards into a disruption-sensitive > environment is > > not recommended./ > > > > But of course that's not stating it as strongly as I remembered, and the > > problem of deploying implementations based on Proposed Standard existed > even > > before that. I remember a flap about telnet implementations circa 1992 > in > > which implementations of a certain option didn't interoperate - one > vendor > > followed the PS text and all of the others implemented it in the opposite > > way, and I heard a lot of people saying "they shouldn't have deployed at > > Proposed". > > In the security area just about all major Internet protocols are at > Proposed Standard. PKIX? Proposed Standard. Kerberos? Ditto. TLS? > Yup. SSHv2? Indeed. IKEv2? No, IKEv2 and CMS are among the > exceptions, though what good IKEv2 might do anyone w/o ESP, or CMS w/o > PKIX, I don't know. > > Whatever the intention originally might have been, it's certainly long > not been the case that one should not deploy protocols that are at > Proposed Standard. > > And it's very difficult to stop vendors from shipping pre-RFC protocols. > We don't have a protocol police, and we move too slowly. If we don't > adapt, other SDOs will do more of our work. A big selling point of the > IETF is its review processes -- the adults in the room to keep authors > from doing dreadful things. But we need to speed up the cycle somewhat, > and one way to do it might be to have a way to indicate expected > stability in I-Ds, and probably only in WG work items only, and at some > cost (e.g., early directorate reviews?). I don't quite know -- maybe > after reflection we might conclude we shouldn't do this, but we should > certainly discuss it, and be able to discuss it. > > Nico > -- > >
- Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side … Warren Kumari
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Richard Barnes
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Richard Barnes
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Warren Kumari
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Paul Wouters
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Nico Williams
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Warren Kumari
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Warren Kumari
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… heather flanagan
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Warren Kumari
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Heather Flanagan
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Michael Richardson
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Ted Lemon
- Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolving Do… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… John C Klensin
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Lars Eggert
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Job Snijders
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Salz, Rich
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Heather Flanagan
- Clarity, evolving documents, living documents, th… John C Klensin
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Clarity, evolving documents, living documents… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Joe Abley
- Re: Clarity, evolving documents, living documents… John C Klensin
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Randy Bush
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Leif Johansson
- RE: Clarity, evolving documents, living documents… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- Fwd: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvi… Keith Moore
- Re: Fwd: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Ev… Randy Bush
- Re: Fwd: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Ev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… john heasley
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Warren Kumari
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… john heasley
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Warren Kumari
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Warren Kumari
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Alissa Cooper
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Christian Huitema
- On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to be c… Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Ted Lemon
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Julian Reschke
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Randy Bush
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Richard Barnes
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Randy Bush
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Rescorla
- RE: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Leif Johansson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Sarah B
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Randy Bush
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Richard Barnes
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Richard Barnes
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Randy Bush
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Richard Barnes
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Leif Johansson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Donald Eastlake
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Keith Moore
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael Richardson
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Keith Moore
- RE: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Eric Gray
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Michael StJohns
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Melinda Shore
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Keith Moore
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Nico Williams
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Julian Reschke
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Julian Reschke
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Keith Moore
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Carsten Bormann
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Julian Reschke
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Keith Moore
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Carsten Bormann
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Julian Reschke
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Stewart Bryant
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Keith Moore
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Carsten Bormann
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… Mary B
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Julian Reschke
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Warren Kumari
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Andrew G. Malis
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Ted Lemon
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Julian Reschke
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Carsten Bormann
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Ted Lemon
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Julian Reschke
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Julian Reschke
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Randy Bush
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Eric Rescorla
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Nico Williams
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Keith Moore
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Joe Touch
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Joe Touch
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Ted Lemon
- Re: On XML and $EDITORs (Re: Things that used to … Joe Touch
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… John Levine
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Scott Kitterman
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Joe Touch
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Scott Kitterman
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… John C Klensin
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… John C Klensin
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Nico Williams
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Stan Kalisch
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Joe Touch
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Joe Touch
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Julian Reschke
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… John R Levine
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Too many tools, was Things that used to be cl… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolvin… S Moonesamy
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Job Snijders
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Ted Lemon
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Ted Lemon
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Nico Williams
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Nico Williams
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Job Snijders
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Randy Bush
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Job Snijders
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Jared Mauch
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Ted Lemon
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Ted Lemon
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Jared Mauch
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… John C Klensin
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Nico Williams
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- is there a specific proposal for living ops docs?… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… john heasley
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… john heasley
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Nico Williams
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Nico Williams
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… Job Snijders
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… John C Klensin
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Warren Kumari
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Martin Thomson
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Warren Kumari
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… John C Klensin
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… John C Klensin
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Keith Moore
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Salz, Rich
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… Randy Bush
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… Jared Mauch
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… Randy Bush
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… Jared Mauch
- Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") s… Hans Petter Holen
- Re: is there a specific proposal for living ops d… Miles Fidelman