From nobody Tue Feb 8 15:08:36 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2923A1213 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:08:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=icloud.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZAzJl8mLNjd8 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:08:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mr85p00im-zteg06021901.me.com (mr85p00im-zteg06021901.me.com [17.58.23.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B99883A0DE0 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:08:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=1a1hai; t=1644361708; bh=LuiGb4iskwMcDJWw+qep1OTd6nRf5aYLpicvy9u1Zc4=; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:To; b=U3PSypvFWCUaHLAjg1ZpsWWAJbs0lQkJav2KSNtTdjP7WR7Nv8OCmff4xrajivmWy h/W3SExJYZDaZ1Aybik//syS3aqTiR4SwOMBSCGkDAUsIef+I4CBJWAsTSXLwlZ5Tu opUi8RDhqEoWNczEm9nBOi5nTQs32jlW4FEaQ33TcRpbQwmK8zSu9U9Ldr/JT5Y0Ue s2/wTcK1aHzYIZUfnHV5JmjFaXYmbmsNpoLMYzrB/YWbAta1nhfixpKwSXc/CYuz6B fp0tAzQJMoM0PQ6MT6QfmyAsrNdW1XHtnEFr5xEXGEJpNuxcMdnOluh1TCYBGQke80 EL0/Ky+0CYhgQ== Received: from [172.20.10.2] (191.sub-174-194-144.myvzw.com [174.194.144.191]) by mr85p00im-zteg06021901.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76CA1740EB4; Tue, 8 Feb 2022 23:08:19 +0000 (UTC) From: Greg Skinner Message-Id: <112C41B1-D389-4262-AF17-464D6C9CFA16@icloud.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_960A7240-5613-4EE6-9742-4BCC4AC8F854" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) Subject: Re: educational challenges to improving IETF diversity and inclusiveness Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:08:11 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: Marc Petit-Huguenin , IETF Discussion Mailing List To: Warren Kumari References: <3A777204-6097-46C5-B28C-DF705DF03240@yahoo.co.uk> <87A9CE8B-2A08-4D1E-8DC1-332F1AECCF46@icloud.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: =?UTF-8?Q?vendor=3Dfsecure_engine=3D1.1.170-22c6f66c430a71ce266a39bfe25bc?= =?UTF-8?Q?2903e8d5c8f:6.0.138,18.0.572,17.11.62.513.0000000_definitions?= =?UTF-8?Q?=3D2020-02-14=5F11:2020-02-14=5F02,2020-02-14=5F11,2021-12-02?= =?UTF-8?Q?=5F01_signatures=3D0?= X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=875 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2202080134 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF-Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2022 23:08:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_960A7240-5613-4EE6-9742-4BCC4AC8F854 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Feb 8, 2022, at 6:42 AM, Warren Kumari wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Sun, Feb 6, 2022 at 6:41 PM Marc Petit-Huguenin = > wrote: > And to be sure that these beginners keep an open mind, let's add >=20 > Day J. Patterns in Network Architecture: A Return to Fundamentals. = Upper Saddle River, NJ: Prentice Hall; 2008. 429 p. >=20 > Many of the books that have been recommended are, IMO, quite heavy = reading. They are certainly good, and worth the time, but handing a = newcomer a big pile of dense academic textbooks seems like it will turn = them off. >=20 To be clear, I was referring to =E2=80=9Cnewcomers=E2=80=9D in the = context of =C2=A710 of=C2=A0draft-gont-diversity-analysis-01 = . In particular, I was thinking of the difficulty some people = have in getting their drafts published, or even (informally) asking if = certain protocol additions or modifications are something the IETF would = pursue. The concepts and principles presented in the books I gave as = examples are useful in explaining why decisions are (or aren=E2=80=99t) = made. There are certainly =E2=80=9Cnewcomers=E2=80=9D for whom these = books would be overkill. Also, except for one (Saltzer/Kaashoek), the books I gave as examples = are available for free online. (About half of Saltzer/Kaashoek is = available for free online.) So if there is a need for anyone to = reference these books, all she or he needs is working Internet access, a = web browser, and a pdf reader. Regards, Greg= --Apple-Mail=_960A7240-5613-4EE6-9742-4BCC4AC8F854 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = Feb 8, 2022, at 6:42 AM, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> = wrote:



On Sun, Feb 6, 2022 at 6:41 PM Marc = Petit-Huguenin <marc@petit-huguenin.org> wrote:
And to be sure that these beginners = keep an open mind, let's add

Day J. Patterns in Network Architecture: A Return to Fundamentals. Upper = Saddle River, NJ: Prentice Hall; 2008. 429 p.

Many of the books that have been recommended are, IMO, quite = heavy reading. They are certainly good, and worth the time, but handing = a newcomer a big pile of dense academic textbooks seems like it = will turn them off.

To be clear, I was = referring to =E2=80=9Cnewcomers=E2=80=9D in the context of =C2=A710 = of draft-gont-diversity-analysis-01.  In particular, I was = thinking of the difficulty some people have in getting their drafts = published, or even (informally) asking if certain protocol additions or = modifications are something the IETF would pursue.  The concepts = and principles presented in the books I gave as examples are useful in = explaining why decisions are (or aren=E2=80=99t) made.  There are = certainly =E2=80=9Cnewcomers=E2=80=9D for whom these books would be = overkill.

Also, except for one = (Saltzer/Kaashoek), the books I gave as examples are available for free = online.  (About half of Saltzer/Kaashoek is available for free = online.)  So if there is a need for anyone to reference these = books, all she or he needs is working Internet access, a web browser, = and a pdf reader.

Regards, Greg= --Apple-Mail=_960A7240-5613-4EE6-9742-4BCC4AC8F854--