Re: New Non-WG Mailing List: CACAO

Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com> Fri, 14 September 2018 15:33 UTC

Return-Path: <sean@sn3rd.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13AD6130DD0 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:33:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.001
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sn3rd.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JeCj-w2paW1e for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:33:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ed1-x533.google.com (mail-ed1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A3AB1200D6 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:33:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ed1-x533.google.com with SMTP id p52-v6so7743398eda.12 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:33:34 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sn3rd.com; s=google; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=uKgretBrUsqP6vNG2z7zdYIwwT6MP8IOdQBEgQ50rx0=; b=Rg/Vep+KqQpEEGmVYrR1e7jOV4P2tjCPwM7v4gbYy7vO9v+jPUKEN9bXCs2t3gByDf fv52cspnwdkbE5XDgDGOyneY1aoZXoXAAcesZL9i4dhB65IgAbhrjzqyjd6ZTcj6F3B6 0M/w2PRXDBB0c+nOpk6HqAUfZoaYHha9xw0cI=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=uKgretBrUsqP6vNG2z7zdYIwwT6MP8IOdQBEgQ50rx0=; b=U6azygcoDep0xJylepWhFLMt+9jgsak8Wl3hhd7JZc2UKR1KSS+Zqazunk/HoTrNdb 2Ii2IgPuwCL71qxvXhJeN0SduZni/pgtA6enrFDT0KdbWlw/EQwaq6o65uMXxWqMZsm+ p4xTxoAugR0AQ7bl0fgxWOxcSiPRRI+y9JTt5HQSMcyf6qaehPjT1Jau4YaFUxjru1+2 e7u6YmqpfUEu/8oxGf9tc2Nnkdh9dxqt6Qh040ttDLbc4NeWBlmbCrts2A7P8xYZujQS XmzQeyzddYt+OfylvLllR2Zkszp2ZBoApV2i/Mk7CNmGouib4xhamBV5vf/2c0DsI9dj DxWw==
X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51AzhENANkLD180213dP9iJhwMj0cGAoiTEzQ6aKgkyw8r5edeDM EDUx+WjsAKwuglDgWy39BlG6AQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdZgV93GnmS29g0mEo+L72dyvZrMHTViV315UX+7qfWZrA0EwPbTVmNawLIwDxMKcfgdIRGCJg==
X-Received: by 2002:a50:f315:: with SMTP id p21-v6mr20706530edm.233.1536939213472; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:33:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [5.5.33.75] (vpn.snozzages.com. [204.42.252.17]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f13-v6sm6294293edf.50.2018.09.14.08.33.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:33:32 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\))
Subject: Re: New Non-WG Mailing List: CACAO
From: Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com>
In-Reply-To: <CALaySJJTuj5qUxkqdwiTAbcCvATepjeSAzDK_WzNv-BFLG_NbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 12:33:26 -0300
Cc: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <AFE035FF-7824-4806-BD0B-E2CF7F7ED620@sn3rd.com>
References: <153678592168.9395.10391346115284210918.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <CAC4RtVCe_Kp7oBg6NewiOvBqRZ9=QKeYZydErxmmUrsjyW4Mnw@mail.gmail.com> <60607ea9-1aba-6512-4a52-b7c8e09c91ba@cs.tcd.ie> <CABcZeBPb45EOsOi9bZPyTMryoktxZt5_ziB8jKXUsRyGPnXQ-Q@mail.gmail.com> <CALaySJJTuj5qUxkqdwiTAbcCvATepjeSAzDK_WzNv-BFLG_NbQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/ELGctWwNufRQ60etRAmukWVc5rM>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:33:38 -0000

Eh I saw it fly by, then did a datatracker search on caco and found the draft. I guess more info would have saved me some time, but I’m kind of used to following references and searching the datatracker at this point. 

spt

> On Sep 13, 2018, at 01:58, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>; wrote:
> 
> I agree that lists are cheap and that one of our main jobs is to
> facilitate discussion, so I have no issue with the creation of the
> list.  I just hoped for a bit more explanation -- even "For details
> see <this draft>" would have helped (I didn't know there was a draft
> at all).
> 
> Anyway, just for future reference; thanks for listening.
> 
> Barry
> 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 12:30 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>; wrote:
>> Full disclosure: I approved this list, so feel free to be unhappy at me.
>> 
>> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 7:55 PM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>;
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hiya,
>>> 
>>> On 13/09/18 03:37, Barry Leiba wrote:
>>>> This really should have come with a fuller description: I shouldn't
>>>> have to contact the list admins just to find out whether a new mailing
>>>> list ought to be on my radar or not.
>>> 
>>> Yeah. And the archive's empty. And it uses the almost
>>> always meaningless prefix "cyber" over and over in
>>> many predictable (but meaningless) ways.
>> 
>> 
>> Well, the archive is empty because it was created today, so I don't think
>> that's much of a critique.
>> 
>> I'll take responsibility for not insisting on there being a very detailed
>> description. I generally find the descriptions pretty uninformative (see,
>> for instance https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cicm) so my bar isn't
>> very high here, but I see how others might feel differently.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> So that's all bad signs IMO then (except for the
>>> existence of the draft.)
>>> 
>>> I'm also a bit sad that we've gotten to the point
>>> where we're setting up lists driven to any extent
>>> by what's really an ill-defined marketing buzzword.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> OTOH, the goal according to [1] is an information
>>> model, so it could be mostly to totally harmless I
>>> guess;-)
>>> 
>>> Only other thing to note is that this happens so
>>> often (new list for who knows what) that maybe the
>>> tooling's a bit wrong and encourages folks to ok
>>> or ask for lists without considering that others
>>> don't have the same (or any) context.
>> 
>> 
>> I think you and I are just going to have to disagree here. Lists are cheap
>> -- they're not WGs -- and I bias in favor of facilitating discussion. I
>> think this is appropriate especially in view of the fact that one of the
>> first questions we ask for a proposed BOF is whether there has been a lot of
>> list traffic. Again, you're free to feel differently.
>> 
>> -Ekr
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> S.
>>> 
>>> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jordan-cacao-introduction-00
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Barry
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 4:58 PM, IETF Secretariat
>>>> <ietf-secretariat@ietf.org>; wrote:
>>>>> A new IETF non-working group email list has been created.
>>>>> 
>>>>> List address: cacao@ietf.org
>>>>> Archive: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cacao/
>>>>> To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cacao
>>>>> 
>>>>> Purpose:
>>>>> This email list will be used to discuss Collaborative Automated Course
>>>>> of
>>>>> Action Operations (CACAO) for Cyber Security
>>>>> 
>>>>> For additional information, please contact the list administrators.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Barry
> --
> Barry Leiba  (barryleiba@computer.org)
> http://internetmessagingtechnology.org/
>