RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary
"Tony Hain" <alh-ietf@tndh.net> Wed, 19 December 2007 21:10 UTC
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From: Tony Hain <alh-ietf@tndh.net>
To: 'Sam Hartman' <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
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Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:10:43 -0800
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Subject: RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary
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Sam, While I understand the virtue in behave-compatible nats, how realistic is it to believe that any service provider is going to allow a consumer to directly signal their infrastructure? This assumption was the failing of RSVP as an endpoint qos tool. There is lots of noise about ISPs just putting up massive nat farms to push their customers out, but when it comes right down to it there is no way that will work for anything but the most trivial client apps. All of the assumptions about nat working today are built around local control of the mappings. When that mapping function has to move to a third party, all bets are off. Worse, when that third party has strong disincentives which keep them from allowing their customers to punch holes, there is no chance that apps will work. ISPs are disincented by even the simple issue of after-the-fact diagnostics being more complicated by dynamic mappings, let alone the problem of conflict resolution between customers. Behave compatible nats are a nice concept for enterprises with multiple levels of internal nat, but third-party trust issues will kill any real deployment of a signaling based approach. Tony > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Hartman [mailto:hartmans-ietf@mit.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:19 PM > To: alh-ietf@tndh.net > Cc: 'IETF Chair'; ietf@ietf.org; iaoc@ietf.org; 'John C Klensin'; > dcrocker@bbiw.net; 'Pete Resnick'; iesg@ietf.org > Subject: Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary > > >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Hain <alh-ietf@tndh.net> writes: > > Tony> the right experiment. It is not right because it does > Tony> nothing positive, other than the threat -maybe- spurring > Tony> some action. A more realistic experiment would be to run the > Tony> entire week with a double-nat for IPv4 (and nats between the > Tony> access points to simulate consumer-to-consumer > Tony> configurations), where the most public one has absolutely no > Tony> provision for punching holes (because realistically an ISP > Tony> is not going to punch inbound holes for its customers, or > Tony> allow them to). > > I strongly support this experiment and believe it would be a really > good idea to run. I do think behave-compatible nats should be used, > but besides that, I think the experiment you propose is far more > valuable than the v6-only experiment. _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Morris
- IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary IETF Chair
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joao Damas
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Pekka Savola
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Edward Lewis
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bill Manning
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bill Manning
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Christian Huitema
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Francis Dupont
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mohsen Souissi
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stewart Bryant
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Edward Lewis
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Marshall Eubanks
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Jaap Akkerhuis
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Lixia Zhang
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Yaakov Stein
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bob Braden
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bob Braden
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ole Jacobsen
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Aki Niemi
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bob Braden
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Avri Doria
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Bill Manning
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary JW Atwood
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Norbert Bollow
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Sam Hartman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ralph Droms
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Russ Housley
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mehmet Ersue
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Fred Baker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- IETF interoperability testing Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ralph Droms
- Re: IETF interoperability testing Randy Presuhn
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IETF interoperability testing Dave Crocker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ned Freed
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Yaakov Stein
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eliot Lear
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Norbert Bollow
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Norbert Bollow
- Incentives for using v6 (was Re: IPv4 Outage Plan… Norbert Bollow
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Iljitsch van Beijnum
- IPv6 deployment strategy RE: Incentives for using… Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eric Rescorla
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- Opportunity Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 P… Leslie Daigle
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephen Farrell
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Douglas Otis
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephen Farrell
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Spencer Dawkins
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary John C Klensin
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Pete Resnick
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: Opportunity Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF … Jari Arkko
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Jari Arkko
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Theodore Tso
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary John C Klensin
- eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Bill Manning
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Frank Ellermann
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Bill Manning
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Aki Niemi
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Richard Shockey
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Mark Andrews
- Re: IETF interoperability testing Brian E Carpenter
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Franck Martin
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Bill Manning
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Cullen Jennings
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Tony Finch
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Iljitsch van Beijnum
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary michael.dillon
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage Theodore Tso
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eric Rescorla
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eric Rescorla
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- Re: eating our own dogfood...Re: IPv4 Outage David Conrad
- Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspectiv… Dan York
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Iljitsch van Beijnum
- RE: Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspe… Ed Juskevicius
- Re: Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspe… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspe… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Let's look at it from an IETF newbie's perspe… Matt Mathis
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Tony Hain
- Re: Opportunity Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF … Elwyn Davies
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Jari Arkko
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Cullen Jennings
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Sam Hartman
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Tony Hain
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Fred Baker
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Tony Hain
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Jari Arkko
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Tony Hain
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Sam Hartman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Sam Hartman
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Brian Dickson
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Tony Hain
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Sam Hartman
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Fred Baker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Franck Martin
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Fred Baker
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Franck Martin
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Martin Stiemerling
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Theodore Tso
- Re: eating our own dogfood... Frank Ellermann
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Philip Matthews
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Eric Rescorla
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Joel Jaeggli
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Theodore Tso
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Dave Crocker
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Morris
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Kessens
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Christian Huitema
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Morris
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Morris
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Paul Hoffman
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary Franck Martin
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary David Conrad
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… TS Glassey
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary IETF Chair
- Re: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Pl… rpelletier
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary John C Klensin
- Re: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Pl… Ray Pelletier
- Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outage Pl… Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: IPv4 Outage Planned for IETF 71 Plenary todd glassey
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… Chris Lonvick
- Re: Change the subject! RE: [IAOC] Re: IPv4 Outag… Dave Crocker
- Re: [IAOC] Re: Let's look at it from an IETF newb… Marshall Eubanks