Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for last-call discussions

Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Mon, 16 September 2019 02:29 UTC

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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 19:28:55 -0700
Message-ID: <CABcZeBMegPn+hJuANAz9-iqon9n6R0Tsno8ECPe0MzEabDKf2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for last-call discussions
To: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>
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On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 11:45 PM John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> wrote:

>
>
> --On Friday, September 13, 2019 13:09 -0700 Eric Rescorla
> <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
> >> I am thinking that both lists should have the same
> >> membership, that is, one can't unsubscribe from only one.
> >> This would preserve the broad community review of last calls
> >> and for community discussions, but still allow separate
> >> discussions.
> >>
> >
> > I disagree with this. Part of the value proposition here is to
> > allow people to engage with last calls and avoid the...
> > unpleasantness... which is the ietf@ list.
>
> Ekr,
>
> I almost agree.  There have certainly been weeks lately in which
> I would classify the bulk of the traffic on the main IETF list
> as unpleasant and have wished that much of hadn't reached me.
> However, we claim that the basis of what we do is "IETF
> consensus".  Today, someone who opts out of the IETF list
> essentially opts out of that consensus process no matter how
> active they might be in, e.g., particular WGs.


I'm not sure on what basis you make that claim, but I don't agree. The
discussion in the WG is part of the consensus proces.

-Ekr

If we split the
> list and the membership of the two lists diverges, I wonder if
> honesty and transparency require us to adjust our vocabulary to
> indicate, e.g., "consensus of those who chose to participate in
> the IETF's broad final review process".
>
>    best,
>     john
>
>