Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft-klensin-rfc2821bis
Marshall Eubanks <tme@multicasttech.com> Tue, 17 June 2008 18:43 UTC
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From: Marshall Eubanks <tme@multicasttech.com>
To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk
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Subject: Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft-klensin-rfc2821bis
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:44:33 -0400
References: <8832006D4D21836CBE6DB469@klensin-asus.vbn.inter-touch.net><485590E2.3080107@gmail.com><p06250116c47c330c7dd0@[75.145.176.242]> <4856DE3A.3090804@gmail.com> <049b01c8d089$6c901ce0$0a00a8c0@CPQ86763045110>
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Cc: 'Pete Resnick' <presnick@qualcomm.com>, 'John C Klensin' <john-ietf@jck.com>, ietf@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org
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I fully agree with Debbie here. Human experience teaches us that examples will be used, over time. Foo.com is a commercial site. If the IETF uses foo.com in email examples, it is reasonable to assume that foo.com will get unwanted traffic because of that. I think that the IETF should not put itself in the position of causing avoidable pain to others, even if the likelihood of serious harm is small. Since there is a remedy, and it could be adopted readily, I think that the discuss was reasonable and do not support the appeal. Regards Marshall On Jun 17, 2008, at 10:50 AM, Debbie Garside wrote: > Not being a expert on this but having briefly read the documents in > question, I agree with Brian. This is not editorial. I would also > add that > to go against an IETF BCP on the grounds of "well we have done so > already > historically" does not make an argument for continuing to do so; > errors > should be corrected when found, not endorsed. If we are to pick and > choose > which RFC's/BCP's we will take notice of what is the point of > standardization? On the face of things, and with my little > knowledge, I > would say that the person within the IESG who has invoked the > DISCUSS is > quite correct. > > Feel free to try to change my mind. > > Best regards > > Debbie Garside > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ietf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org] On >> Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter >> Sent: 16 June 2008 22:42 >> To: Pete Resnick >> Cc: John C Klensin; iesg@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on >> draft-klensin-rfc2821bis >> >> Pete (and Dave Crocker), >> >> On 2008-06-17 03:20, Pete Resnick wrote: >>> On 6/16/08 at 10:00 AM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> >>>> I think one can make a case that in some documents, use of >>>> non-RFC2606 names as examples is a purely stylistic >> matter, and that >>>> in others, it would potentially cause technical confusion. >>> >>> Please make that case if you would, because the example you give: >>> >>>> >>>> In the evaluation record for what became RFC4343 >>>> (https://datatracker.ietf.org/idtracker/ballot/1612/) we find: >>>> >>>> "Editorial issues: >>>> >>>> - the document uses a number of non-example.com/192.0.2.0 >>>> addresses/names, but in this case this seems justifiable" >>>> >>>> In other words this *was* a judgement call. >>> >>> ...quite specifically said it was an "Editorial issue". >> Please explain >>> the circumstance in which it would not be an editorial issue. >> >> Well, I've seen *many* cases of disagreement whether a >> particular issue was editorial or substantative, so I >> wouldn't claim that there is any absolute standard here. And >> I've been trying not to comment on the specific issue of >> 2821bis, because I have not reviewed it in detail and make no >> claim to expertise. Nor am I commenting on whether the >> specific DISCUSS comments in this case are reasonable or not >> and whether they are well-formulated or not. >> >> If a real domain name, or a real IP address, or a real IP >> prefix, is used as an example in code, pseudo-code, or in the >> description of a configuration mechanism, there's a good >> chance that it will end up in an actual implementation or in >> an actual configuration file one day (far from the IETF). In >> my opinion that is a source of technical confusion and >> possibly of unwanted traffic. So I think there is a strong >> argument that RFC 2606 values SHOULD be used whenever >> reasonably possible. >> >> That's my opinion; I'm not asserting that it's an IETF >> consensus or that it necessarily applies to 2821bis. But I do >> assert that it's a technical argument and not an editorial one. >> >> Brian >> >>> >>> Of course, the ballot in this particular case >>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/idtracker/ballot/2471/> makes >> no claims >>> about "technical confusion". I assume that when no >> "technical confusion" >>> exists, you *would* consider such things "an editorial issue"? (A >>> misplaced comma or the use of the passive *may* cause "technical >>> confusion", but unless this is called out, the assumption is always >>> that such things are "editorial issues".) >>> >>> pr >> _______________________________________________ >> IETF mailing list >> IETF@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf >> >> >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > IETF mailing list > IETF@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf _______________________________________________ IETF mailing list IETF@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft-kle… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Lakshminath Dondeti
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Eastlake III Donald-LDE008
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Eric Gray
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Pete Resnick
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Tony Hansen
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Robert Elz
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… TSG
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… TSG
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Brian Dickson
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Simon Josefsson
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… eburger
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… David Kessens
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Fred Baker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Fred Baker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Lakshminath Dondeti
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Robert Elz
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Eastlake III Donald-LDE008
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Spencer Dawkins
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Pete Resnick
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Eliot Lear
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… TSG
- example TLH (was: Appeal against IESG blocking DI… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… LB
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Simon Josefsson
- Limits of RFC 2606 (Was: Appeal against IESG bloc… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Bob Hinden
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Robert Elz
- Re: Limits of RFC 2606 Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Robert Elz
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Cridland
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Cridland
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Ralph Droms
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Spencer Dawkins
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Cridland
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Ned Freed
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Ted Hardie
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Pete Resnick
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Eliot Lear
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Ted Hardie
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Robert Elz
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… SM
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Debbie Garside
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Randy Presuhn
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John Levine
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Cridland
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Pete Resnick
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Bernard Aboba
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Bernard Aboba
- RE: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Russ Housley
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Julian Reschke
- Measuring IETF and IESG trends (Was: Re: Appeal a… Jari Arkko
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Measuring IETF and IESG trends (Was: Re: Appe… Marshall Eubanks
- Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends (Re:… Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Melinda Shore
- RE: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Ross Callon
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Jari Arkko
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … John C Klensin
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… Dave Crocker
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… SM
- Re: Appeal against IESG blocking DISCUSS on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … John C Klensin
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … SM
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends Frank Ellermann
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends Paul Hoffman
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … SM
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Russ Housley
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Jari Arkko
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Ted Hardie
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Jari Arkko
- RE: Qualitative Analysis of IETF and IESG trends … Romascanu, Dan (Dan)