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Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 04:31:58 -0500
Message-ID: <19C06709BE3DD54FAC8ADFBBF31C7FF7176657@usdals324.usa.alcatel.com>
Thread-Topic: IETF 62
Thread-Index: AcSe3DGAzM+9GOJgQS+Vf8/9oGfirgAGHuJ9
From: "Ben Crosby" <ben.crosby@alcatel.com>
To: <ietf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: IETF 62
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G'day Martin,

>From my own person experience, having these meetings in "nice" places =
tends to make it more difficult to convince the powers that be internal =
to one's own company that this is a legitimate business expense. I'm not =
saying impossible, after all, it is still an IETF meeting, but just a =
little more difficult.=20

"You want a week in Hawaii in December for a conference? Which one? Oooh =
the IETF is having another jolly?"=20

Point taken though, being able to get out into the sun in San Diego was =
great.=20

Alcatel is only too happy to be the host. We are looking forward to the =
meeting.=20

Ben.=20


This doesn't bode well. =20



-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Stiemerling <stiemerling@netlab.nec.de>
To: Ben Crosby <ben.crosby@alcatel.com>; ietf@ietf.org <ietf@ietf.org>
Sent: Mon Sep 20 01:36:03 2004
Subject: Re: IETF 62

Hi,

I can follow and understand a lot of the discussions about not getting=20
involved into political issues, but I cannot follow the discussion about =

not going to nice place, since people could get attracted by the=20
surroundings and not the IETF.

First, people are old enough to focus on their work at the IETF meeting. =

Saying "work, not play" implies "people aren't able to focus on their =
work"=20
and thus we are going back to what people would like to avoid: political =

issues. Second, it is always nice to get outside during IETF breaks and=20
having lunch/dinner/any other break in a nice area.

Anyway, I think the Cancun proposal is more a nice hint than a serious=20
proposals.

Many thanks to Alcatel for hosting the upcoming IETF and I'm looking=20
forward to Washington.

Regards,

  Martin

--On Sonntag, 19. September 2004 19:46 Uhr -0500 Ben Crosby=20
<ben.crosby@alcatel.com> wrote:

| Hear hear!
|
| I debated posting after the fingerprint thread, and then again after =
the
| Cancun comment. Sam's email accurately sums up my own view.
|
| Further, as the host of IETF61, we explored at least four possible
| venues, one of which was Ottawa - too bloody awkward to get to, since
| there are very few direct flights, and even fewer venues big enough to
| support the meeting - and another was Florida, a WDW Conference hotel.
| This venue was ultimately rejected for a few reasons, one of which was
| the implications of "work, not play". DC was ultimately selected as a
| good "business" town, and I hope it will be a succesful meeting.
|
| Ta,
| Ben.
|
|
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: ietf-bounces@ietf.org <ietf-bounces@ietf.org>
| To: ietf@ietf.org <ietf@ietf.org>
| Sent: Sun Sep 19 19:28:06 2004
| Subject: Re: IETF 62
|
| Two things brought up in this thread disturb me.  First, there seems
| to be the idea that we should be choosing where IETFs are held for
| political purposes--to make statements for or against certain
| governments.  I'm not quite sure this was said or implied, but if it
| was, I'm made a bit uncomfortable by it.
|
| I certainly understand we should carefully consider situations that
| make people unable or unwilling to attend an IETF.  Maximizing the
| number of active (and potentially active) participants who can make it
| to a meeting is a valid thing to consider.  If the political policies
| of a country make it hard to get the people we need in that country
| then we should go there less frequently or not at all.  Note that one
| way these policies can make it hard for us to get the people we need
| in a particular country is for these people to be unwilling to travel
| to that country.
|
| However in similar situations (not all of them within the IETF
| context) I've seen the desire to avoid a particular country go beyond
| what is justified by a desire to make the conference accessible.  In
| some cases it seemed to venture into the realm of political statement.
| The conference seemed to want to say that they were taking a stand
| against the policies of a country.  That is dangerous: getting
| involved in politics may compromise our ability to construct the best
| Internet we can.  There may be some cases where we must get involved
| in politics; I'm skeptical that any involve conference venue
| selection.  Even worse, it sometimes seems like the desire is to go
| beyond a statement and actually punish countries by not going that.
| That's just stupid; we end up punishing our own attendees from those
| countries, not the countries themselves.
|
| Again, I'm not sure I see this problem in this thread.  It's not
| entirely clear what peoples' motivations are.  I know that I feel more
| comfortable with the outcomes of discussions based on fair
| distribution of travel and convenience of participants than I do with
| the outcomes of discussions based on fingerprinting, rules and who is
| involved in a particular country's decision making process.  This is
| true even when the discussions produce identical results; the process
| matters.
|
| Secondly, I'm concerned that people are proposing optimizing for
| pleasant climate and good vacation spots.  I come to the IETF to get
| work done; I'd rather be at meetings where the other participants have
| the same goal.  We should be somewhat careful of optimizing for
| enjoyable location.  I'd rather see us optimize for who can attend and
| cost.
|
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