Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Sat, 23 January 2021 07:21 UTC
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Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 02:21:13 -0500
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
cc: Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com>, ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections
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--On Saturday, January 23, 2021 19:18 +1300 Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Agreed. The problem here is not whether incumbents are > re-appointed, but why the pool of candidates lacks diversity. > This is not exactly a new problem. Well, I think we have three separate problems, none of which require "I think Alice would be better than Betty" discussions... (1) How we handle incumbents who are willing to enlist for additional terms without discouraging people from volunteering to run against them. See my previous note for a pointer to at least one way to mitigate the problem. There are probably others, but the IESG was not interested in a discussion in 2009, so the topic dropped. Perhaps conditions for the discussion a better today, perhaps not. (2) How we increase diversity in the IETF and, in particular, among those who have whatever support is needed to stand for leadership positions and become part of the candidate pool (and, for that matter, part of the Nomcom volunteer pool and the WG Chair volunteer pool). (3) What advice we would like to give future Nomcom about the relative importance of diversity in particular bodies vis-a-vis picking people based on other qualifications for the relevant positions. I am firmly convinced that more diverse organizations (and especially decision-making bodies) function better and produce better results. I have also seen the IETF make what I believe were poor technical decisions because everyone involved was used to very high speed networks with substantially unlimited capacity and the very latest and fastest local computers and other local equipment, a problem with which a different type of diversity would help too. But, especially on the IESG where AD positions require specific technical expertise and understanding my suspicion is that any simple answer to the question of how to balance those requirements against diversity if there is a shortage of the combination in the IETF is probably wrong. I do want to make a suggestion to complement Bron's. Would it be useful to create a repository for confidential comments to the 2021-2022 Nomcom right now? We could then encourage Rich and anyone else who thinks the 2020-2021 Nomcom got some things wrong and that we can do better to upload comments in as much detail as they think appropriate now, while their thinking is still fresh. But we would treat that material as confidential comments to the future Nomcom, using whatever degree of security cleverness we think is needed to prevent anyone from reading the comments until the new Nomcom Chair is appointed and the keys turned over to them. best, john > On Sat, 23 Jan 2021, 19:11 Loa Andersson, <loa@pi.nu> wrote: > >> Bron, >> >> I agree with John, I think it is bac practice to discuss >> names and selections. >... > On 23/01/2021 13:09, Bron Gondwana wrote: >> > Hi John, >> > >> > I would say quite the opposite. If he'd been selected and >> > had to work with everyone else, then this would be an >> > unfair question, but otherwise I think it's a vital >> > question and deserves to be addressed. >> > >> > We see many claims that it would be better to increase the >> > diversity of representation among the leadership of people >> > along certain of the axes along which humans differ, and >> > Rich has specifically taken the time to decry a lack of >> > said diversity in the current leadership (both concluding >> > and incoming). >> > >> > I'm actually particularly interested to see whether Rich >> > suggests that he would have been the best choice for the >> > role that he applied for, despite being white, male, >> > cis-gendered and western. Given those facts, I'm >> > interested in how he squares the request for increased >> > diversity with his candidacy, given that the diversity >> > would by definition have to be created by picking >> > non-{western white male}s for other roles in the leadership. >> > >> > You can't divorce the abstract concerns from the concrete >> > underlying constraints. It's nice to have those concerns >> > in the abstract, but "rough consensus and running code" - >> > you can't have a rough consensus that "we get more type-X >> > person into leadership" without running "we encourage >> > type-X people to run and we choose them when they do". >> > >> > I observe a lot of "we should have more of people not like >> > me in leadership, and yet I want to keep my place in >> > leadership" in the world, and it's incongruent. I don't >> > think Rich's statement of a general goal can stand >> > independent of there existing realistic pathways to achieve >> > that goal, and hence I think it's fair to ask Rich what >> > realistic pathway exists to have delivered a result that he >> > would have been more satisfied with than this one. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Bron.
- NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections NomCom Chair 2020
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Job Snijders
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Livingood, Jason
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Bron Gondwana
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Bron Gondwana
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Loa Andersson
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Brian Carpenter
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Bron Gondwana
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections tom petch
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Michael Richardson
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Brian E Carpenter
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Joel M. Halpern
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Donald Eastlake
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections STARK, BARBARA H
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Adrian Farrel
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Donald Eastlake
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Livingood, Jason
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections STARK, BARBARA H
- Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 Annou… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael Richardson
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Jay Daley
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Terry Manderson
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Eliot Lear
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Eliot Lear
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections tom petch
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Alexey Melnikov
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… S Moonesamy
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Keith Moore
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections S Moonesamy
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Spencer Dawkins at IETF