Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's

Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu> Thu, 09 September 2010 20:26 UTC

Return-Path: <hartmans@mit.edu>
X-Original-To: ietf@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 887443A6894 for <ietf@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 9 Sep 2010 13:26:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -102.894
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.629, BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mO6DlyknpHsJ for <ietf@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 9 Sep 2010 13:26:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.suchdamage.org (permutation-city.suchdamage.org [69.25.196.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 684693A67F9 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 9 Sep 2010 13:26:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from carter-zimmerman.suchdamage.org (carter-zimmerman.suchdamage.org [69.25.196.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "laptop", Issuer "laptop" (not verified)) by mail.suchdamage.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A74C620B99; Thu, 9 Sep 2010 16:27:12 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by carter-zimmerman.suchdamage.org (Postfix, from userid 8042) id 2D8B14761; Thu, 9 Sep 2010 16:27:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
To: Bob Braden <braden@isi.edu>
Subject: Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's
References: <4C815335.4050209@bennett.com> <4C81554D.5060000@gmail.com> <4C8169DF.7010202@bennett.com> <4C8172AC.9060202@gmail.com> <4C817866.7040400@bennett.com> <4C817C6F.8070303@gmail.com> <4C818963.4090106@bennett.com> <21B56D7B-F058-47C8-8CBB-B35F82E1A0D2@standardstrack.com> <0ECC03C0-63B9-401F-B395-ACFBDF427296@gmail.com> <7F4C5F55-E722-4DF4-8E84-8D25628C55A3@standardstrack.com> <038B62A2-6B53-4FC2-8BDD-E1C9D6BDFB82@bbn.com> <4C880393.2070701@gmail.com> <4C880A51.9010604@bennett.com> <4C893762.9070004@isi.edu>
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:27:04 -0400
In-Reply-To: <4C893762.9070004@isi.edu> (Bob Braden's message of "Thu, 09 Sep 2010 12:37:06 -0700")
Message-ID: <tslfwxi3bon.fsf@live.mit.edu>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.110009 (No Gnus v0.9) Emacs/22.3 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 20:26:48 -0000

>>>>> "Bob" == Bob Braden <braden@isi.edu> writes:

    Bob> On 9/8/2010 3:12 PM, Richard Bennett wrote:
    >> It seems to me that one of the issues here is that architecture
    >> models are published as Informational when they're clearly not in
    >> the same level of authority as most Informational RFCs. An
    >> architecture document is meant to guide future work on standards
    >> track RFCs, and has been regarded historically as more or less
    >> binding.

    Bob> "...guide future work on standards track RFCs" -- yes.

    Bob> "...historically as more or less binding" -- no.
Bob, this was certainly an issue that came up when I was on the IESG.
At that time, we definitely felt that there were some architectural
decisions that the community as a whole had bought into.  We believed
that departing from such a decision was something that the community as
a whole needed to revisit.  For example, when a WG was chartered to work
on an architecture after the architecture document was approved, it
seemed fairly clear that the community had expressed a desire to have a
chance to look at that architecture.  Other times, however, it seemed to
us that a requirements document or architecture document represented the
thinking within a single working group. There, it didn't seem like
departing from this guidance required as much community review.

I'm summarizing a fair bit of discussions, but enough different
prospectives and examples were brought into the discussion that I feel
confident that while we don't know how large the sample size was, it was
more than just that IESG who believed there are times when architecture
documents are intended to bind.

I know I've often found the informational RFC label inadequate to
describe this sort of distinction and found that this distinction is
important to capture.

--Sam