Re: [Terminology] AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using Inclusive Language in Documentary Standards"

[Jim Fenton <[e-mail]>]

IESG decided to reference NIST IR 8366 because it said what they wanted 
to say, not because it had any official status as a NIST Interagency 
Report. That hasn’t changed as a result of the withdrawal of 8366 by 
NIST.

As Jean Mahoney pointed out, the Internet Archive copy of NIST IR 8366 
is stable so there isn’t any reason we can’t continue using it. A 
decision to change to a different document like the ISO/IEC document 
should be based on an improvement in content, not a change in official 
status.

-Jim

On 4 Jun 2025, at 4:01, Julien Maisonneuve (Nokia) wrote:

> Administratively the NIST document no longer exists, no amount of copy 
> will change that.
> Unless the RFC editor insists on using the document that no longer 
> exists (in which case someone needs to talk to him/her), using the 
> equivalent ISO/IEC document you pointed to appears to be a sound 
> approach to respect inclusivity in an international standards 
> environment.
> J.
>
> From: Q Misell <q=[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 12:27 PM
> To: [e-mail]; [e-mail]
> Cc: The IESG <[e-mail]>
> Subject: [Terminology] AUTH48 and "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using 
> Inclusive Language in Documentary Standards"
>
>
> CAUTION: This is an external email. Please be very careful when 
> clicking links or opening attachments. See the URL nok.it/ext for 
> additional information.
>
>
> Moin all,
>
> I currently have an RFC in the AUTH48 stage, and as part of this the 
> RFC editor asks me to review my text for possible issues around 
> inclusive and respectful language, or rather lack thereof.
> Unfortunately, the accepted reference document to check language 
> against, and to provide guidance on the construction of inclusive text 
> is NIST 8366 "Guidance for NIST Staff on Using Inclusive Language in 
> Documentary Standards". There is nothing wrong with the (former) 
> contents of this document, rather that if one tries to access it 
> nowaday they are presented with a 1 page PDF simply stating that "this 
> paper has been withdrawn to comply with executive order (E.O.) 14151" 
> - in essence, President Trump has such a gripe with DEI that we can no 
> longer write inclusive RFCs.
>
> I recognise this situation is not anyone with the IETF community's 
> fault - its a ludicrous situation to be placed in by the political 
> whims of a wannabe authoritarian. But the problem exists, and we 
> should probably do something about it. As a starting point, I suggest 
> we adopt the joint inclusive language guidance of the ISO and the IEC 
> [1]; as these are both well respected international standards 
> organisations, this maintains the stated goal of adopting NIST 8366 - 
> in that the language used in the IETF is standardised across industry 
> [2].
>
> I am, of course, open to other suggestions about what to do about this 
> situation; and I particularly encourage the IESG to put forward their 
> suggestions to the community.
>
> For now, I will continue editing my RFC based on my understanding of 
> inclusive language, and hope that I do not make any mistakes that a 
> solid reference would've prevented.
>
> Q
>
> [1]: 
> https://iec.ch/system/files/2024-09/iec_doc_topical_inclusive-terminology-guidance_fa_lr.pdf
> [2]: 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/statement-iesg-iesg-statement-on-inclusive-language-20210511/
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