Re: Barely literate minutes
Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu> Wed, 28 November 2012 21:24 UTC
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From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
To: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
Subject: Re: Barely literate minutes
References: <CAC4RtVCogYS4tmY1LLi0C-E+B+di2_wTD0N-=AZrVR7-A8Mz+A@mail.gmail.com> <50B5C839.4060909@gmail.com> <59924CD37D50616BA8EB8EF7@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20121128023905.0afdcde0@resistor.net> <66705A84964227D7EC38A341@JcK-HP8200.jck.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 16:24:30 -0500
In-Reply-To: <66705A84964227D7EC38A341@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> (John C. Klensin's message of "Wed, 28 Nov 2012 15:53:43 -0500")
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Cc: SM <sm@resistor.net>, IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
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>>>>> "John" == John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> writes: John> Let me be clear. For most WGs and purposes, most of the time, John> the "minutes" are the minutes and I'm certainly not going to John> be the one who makes a big fuss about clarity or literacy John> unless they are so incomplete and incompetent that posting John> them becomes a joke. _However_ if a WG wants to make/be an John> exception to the principle that consensus has to be John> demonstrated on the mailing list and instead wants to rely on John> face to face discussions, than that WG is, IMO, obligated to John> have minutes complete and comprehensible enough that someone John> who did not participate in the meeting, even remotely, can John> determine what went on and why and hence whether the proposed John> solution or agreement is acceptable. If the WG cannot produce John> such minutes, then I think it is obligated to be able to John> demonstrate consensus from the mailing list discussions alone. Unfortunately demonstraiting discussions based on the mailing list alone also opens latitude for appeals. According to RFc 2418, chairs must combine the face-to-face discussions and mailing lists when judging consensus. If I as a participant believe that the face-to-face discussions when added to the mailing list discussion would change the outcome and the chairs say they are only considering the mailing list discussions, I have valid grounds for an appeal. Take a look at the discussions surrounding the IPv6 site-local appeal and particular at the responses generated at the IAB and IESG level for some of our historical thinking on this. Personally I'd strongly support an update to RFC 2418 that allowed|encouraged|required chairs to take a consensus call entirely to the list .
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" t.p.
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Melinda Shore
- "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Barry Leiba
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Marc Blanchet
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" joel jaeggli
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" ned+ietf
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Andrew Sullivan
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Geoff Huston
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" David Meyer
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" John C Klensin
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" SM
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" David Morris
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Joe Touch
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Hector Santos
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" John Leslie
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Donald Eastlake
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Brian E Carpenter
- RE: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" John C Klensin
- Barely literate minutes (was: "IETF work is done … SM
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Randy Bush
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Yoav Nir
- RE: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" tglassey
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Keith Moore
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Dave Crocker
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Eliot Lear
- Pre-IETF work ( was - Re: "IETF work is done on t… Dave Crocker
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Barely literate minutes (was: "IETF work is d… John C Klensin
- Re: Barely literate minutes Scott Brim
- Re: Barely literate minutes Sam Hartman
- Re: Barely literate minutes Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Barely literate minutes Dave Crocker
- Re: Barely literate minutes Sam Hartman
- Re: Barely literate minutes Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Alessandro Vesely
- Re: Barely literate minutes Pete Resnick
- Re: Barely literate minutes Randy Bush
- Re: Barely literate minutes Dave Crocker
- Re: Barely literate minutes SM
- Re: Barely literate minutes Bob Hinden
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Geoff Huston
- Re: Barely literate minutes John C Klensin
- RE: Barely literate minutes Hutton, Andrew
- Re: Barely literate minutes t.p.
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Eliot Lear
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Edward Lewis
- Re: Barely literate minutes Barry Leiba
- Re: Barely literate minutes Dave Crocker
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" SM
- RE: Barely literate minutes Lee Howard
- Re: Barely literate minutes Randy Bush
- Re: Barely literate minutes Pete Resnick
- Re: Barely literate minutes Suresh Krishnan
- Re: Barely literate minutes Fernando Gont
- Re: Barely literate minutes Keith Moore
- PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely lit… Keith Moore
- Re: Barely literate minutes Dave Crocker
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Randall Gellens
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Randy Bush
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Melinda Shore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Randall Gellens
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… SM
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… John C Klensin
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… John C Klensin
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… John Levine
- English spoken here (was: PowerPoint considered h… SM
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: English spoken here (was: PowerPoint consider… John C Klensin
- Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken here) Dave Crocker
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… John C Klensin
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Dave Crocker
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Melinda Shore
- Presentation vs. Discussion sessions (was: PowerP… Keith Moore
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions Melinda Shore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Randall Gellens
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions Keith Moore
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions Melinda Shore
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions Keith Moore
- Acculturation [was Re: PowerPoint considered harm… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: English spoken here (was: PowerPoint consider… SM
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Randy Bush
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Randy Bush
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Dave Crocker
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Melinda Shore
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Tim Chown
- RE: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… George, Wes
- RE: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… George, Wes
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- RE: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… George, Wes
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Tim Chown
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: English spoken here (was: PowerPoint consider… Steven Bellovin
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Tony Hansen
- RE: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Lee Howard
- Re: English spoken here Keith Moore
- Re: English spoken here Steven Bellovin
- Re: English spoken here John C Klensin
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions (was: Po… Randall Gellens