Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCurve to secure DNS)
Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@gmail.com> Fri, 26 February 2010 21:14 UTC
Return-Path: <hallam@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A143A85B5 for <ietf@core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:14:06 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.54
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.574, BAYES_00=-2.599, FRT_EXPERIENCE=2.333, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, SARE_BIZOP=0.7]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q6tXkc5D4a0v for <ietf@core3.amsl.com>; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:14:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-iw0-f189.google.com (mail-iw0-f189.google.com [209.85.223.189]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43BD43A8572 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:14:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: by iwn27 with SMTP id 27so78343iwn.5 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:16:14 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=rzyhqQTeWQ4H9bycUK0KjebmRrFH6Jm9s5ELeBnlLtA=; b=WB8KyOT6cDsVsAnW+VhnKdxrAEUmvuOhwPaEJ9k5OTLNqHLO0CzK/zUOWMda/tjYgp Gfs/9KoCeiPV0CfVb3ZRlIhq9O2Q/LLxIOX9/Yh36NF0NnscNBI/KqLtrPOtpJGB9yYf ri2SBFL+TlK5AVdRwFGjGLlhCpnGkC99Vc8DY=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=NexXlBXacuuTWvtt9l9F8E13Maq3g1FlwIy2TxCjbwFBqGNEvYunXm5Og0nkZZk4Y/ zFNvQ0EFOhsBKKlTFdwjdohfsligSAuOq+xsDB2+Upr+z51gYycdUHA6LwdIfdnnqZpB Y5LZLU6HdmhNX/vRldv5dMPMDxicf2wXNgukc=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.231.160.149 with SMTP id n21mr778212ibx.93.1267218973715; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:16:13 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <20100225201803.GA4842@isc.upenn.edu>
References: <4B859F15.9080106@acm.org> <201002242347.o1ONlt7L023898@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4B85BF52.7030004@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <c331d99a1002241619y47f91f50g4433a7233350dc74@mail.gmail.com> <4B85DBCA.2060407@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <4B862D03.7060602@gnutls.org> <4B863571.40604@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <a123a5d61002250614h36c51a42xebb54c3cc340829d@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LFD.1.10.1002251151010.1697@newtla.xelerance.com> <20100225201803.GA4842@isc.upenn.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:16:13 -0500
Message-ID: <a123a5d61002261316r75245cd4p2d85c342ace577d0@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCurve to secure DNS)
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@gmail.com>
To: Shumon Huque <shuque@isc.upenn.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 07:32:02 -0800
Cc: Masataka Ohta <mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp>, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, IETF Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:14:06 -0000
Some CAs sacrificed security for profitability. Which was the reason I started the EV process. If the race to the bottom had continued the products we sold would have no value at all. Getting your root into a browser requires you to get a WebTrust audit against your CPS. The problem is that before EV there were no requirements for the CPS. So long as your process said 'I do absolutely nothing at all', you could get your WebTrust audit. Some of the browser providers impose other requirements, but none addressed the validation criteria until EV was created. http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc751157.aspx The only thing that was holding the system together was the fact that the older browsers could not update their root stores. So new CAs could only get a start by paying to cross-certify with an existing root. And all the roots that were inserted pre-Web Trust had been required to provide a CPS that actually committed them to do something with at least some meaning. That is why it costs more to get your CA cross-signed by some roots than others, those that promised least can command the highest prices. At this stage there are far fewer older browsers due to natural attrition and the older roots timing out. And at the end of this year Microsoft is going to pull the 1024 bit roots from the program. That is a good thing from the crypto point of view but will eliminate the last vestiges of control in the DV market unless something is done. I would like to deploy DNSSEC for the same reasons that you give. The problem is that at the moment it runs straight into a buzz-saw of global international politics. That is in the process of being fixed. On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 3:18 PM, Shumon Huque <shuque@isc.upenn.edu> wrote: > On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:55:03AM -0500, Paul Wouters wrote: >> On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >> >If DNSSEC succeeds, the domain validated certificate business will >> >have to either transform or eventually die. I think that for most CAs, >> >the business opportunities from SSL+DNSSEC are greater than the >> >opportunities from the current DV SSL business. DNSSEC cannot deploy >> >unless the registrars have cryptography expperience, the CAs have that >> >experience. >> >> If you ask security researchers, it has been proven that CA's sacrificed >> security for profitability. The CA model has failed to work. 2 second >> validation based on email, md5 based * root certificates signed, etc etc. >> The last two years saw a significant amount of attacks against CA's, and >> CA's have seen their profit margin fall to near zero, so even if they >> wanted to, they cannot increase security (you ask me a confirmation for >> my cert, I'll go to this other ssl provider that doesn't). > > I'll refrain from inserting the obligatory Matt Blaze CA quote > here :-) > >> The time of outsourcing security to CA's is over. >> >> Paul > > Exactly. What many of us would like to see is the ability for > enterprises to issue X.509 certificates themselves for their own > application services. If we're going to have a global PKI, > the way I think it should work is that CA's higher up in the > hierarchy should certify CA's below them (enterprises or > some trusted intermediaries) using 'name constraint's so that > the subordinate CA's can only issue certificates for subject > identities in the namespace for which they have authority. And > ideally the higher level CAs should be multi-lateral non-profits, > rather than states or for-profit corporations engaged in a > collective race to the bottom. > > The current situation with commercial CAs is beyond horrible. Just > take a look at how many "root" CAs are embedded in your favorite > browser, and with virtually no constraints on the name space in > which they can issue certs. Do you really trust all of them? Any > of them, whether by malice or by being tricked, can issue a certificate > for any of your services. Our security is basically as good as the > the CA with the laxest policies & worst security. > > And in terms of functionality, they are woefully inadequate too. > Most of them can only issue certs for hostnames in subject or > subject alternative name dnsname fields. What if I want to deploy > a certificate with other types of extension fields to better > compartmentalize security or to enable new functionality, eg. URI, > SRVName, a custom SAN, or application-service specific EKU fields? > Allowing organizations to issue their own certificates allows them > to deploy security infrastructure that actually addresses their needs. > > Perhaps it's wishful thinking, but I kinda look forward to the > day that DNSSEC is widely deployed. I look forward to using SSHFP, > IPSECKEY, and (a better version of) CERT to displace the broken > Internet PKI .. > > --Shumon. > -- -- New Website: http://hallambaker.com/ View Quantum of Stupid podcasts, Tuesday and Thursday each week, http://quantumofstupid.com/
- OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCurve t… Joe Baptista
- RE: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Joe Baptista
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… tytso
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Dave CROCKER
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Martin Rex
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Wes Hardaker
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Tony Finch
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Paul Wouters
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Paul Hoffman
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Paul Hoffman
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Steven M. Bellovin
- DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS today a… Shane Kerr
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Tony Finch
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… David Conrad
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Tony Finch
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Paul Wouters
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Paul Hoffman
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Tony Finch
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Paul Hoffman
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Masataka Ohta
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Mark Andrews
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Masataka Ohta
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Masataka Ohta
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Joe Baptista
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Basil Dolmatov
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Masataka Ohta
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Tony Finch
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! Florian Weimer
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Martin Rex
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Paul Wouters
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Paul Wouters
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… David Conrad
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Paul Wouters
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Tony Finch
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… Paul Wouters
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Paul Wouters
- Re: OpenDNS today announced it has adopted DNSCur… David Conrad
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Joe Abley
- RE: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Hollenbeck, Scott
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Shumon Huque
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Masataka Ohta
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! Masataka Ohta
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! Florian Weimer
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! Masataka Ohta
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Masataka Ohta
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Joe Baptista
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… David Conrad
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Tony Finch
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Paul Wouters
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Masataka Ohta
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Wassim Haddad
- PKIgate Masataka Ohta
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Masataka Ohta
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Shumon Huque
- Re: DNSCurve vs. DNSSEC - FIGHT! (was OpenDNS tod… Masataka Ohta