Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Sun, 03 March 2013 14:00 UTC
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Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 09:00:37 -0500
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com>, IETF IETF <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director
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--On Sunday, March 03, 2013 12:50 +0000 "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com> wrote: > The likely possibility is that many qualified people failed to > get sufficient employer support to be able to volunteer. It's > at least a 50% time commitment. Yes. And with emphasis on "at least". See below. --On Sunday, March 03, 2013 07:56 -0500 Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com> wrote: > The 50% time commitment is an IESG-imposed requirement. If > that is really the problem, we have had areas with more than > two ADs. Eric, You say that as if the IESG sat down and said "let's make up a 50% requirement" and could have as easily said "let's make up a 25% requirement". That number is supposed to be IESG's best estimate about the time commitment required, not a requirement they have somehow set. While I've often been critical of the IESG, I have no reason to believe that they fudged the number upward. From observations of how much time and energy several ADs put in, I would, if anything, suspect that a 50% estimate is too low. You also know better than to believe that adding another AD slot would have much influence on this. First, ADs spend significant time on areas other than their own. Unless the review rules were changed so that only one AD from a given area even needed to look at a document or perhaps even participate in IESG calls and discussions, increasing the number of ADs in an area doesn't help with that source of time commitment. Possibly dividing up the area's working groups three ways rather than two would help, but I note that Transport doesn't have a disproportionately large number of WGs. Whether you think the Parkinson or the Brooks analysis are the most relevant, work expands to fill the available time. I do think there is a problem with that 50% number (or the large number that I suspect is more realistic). I've explained that concern several times on this list (and more times in various process WGs). In essence, I think that IESG members who take their responsibilities very seriously (a good thing, up to a point) and who are able to spend most of their time on the IETF, have, together, gradually taken on more tasks and responsibilities for the IESG. Those tasks, in turn, have made the job bigger. I believe that the IESG should be managed, and manage itself, so that each new task and each new BOF or WG, is evaluated on the assumption that IESG time is a scarce resource and that increased workload is not acceptable. And I believe that sunset provisions should be applied to existing tasks and procedures with an overall goal of getting the IESG job back down to the level that it could be done alongside a realistic day job with real design, product, or implementation commitments, not instead of one (once upon a time, that was the norm). There are other ways to accomplish the same thing and to do so more quickly. For example, while I'm not recommending it, one could, in principle, separate WG and IETF management and "steering" functions and document review and approval functions off into separate bodies. But no one seems to even want to discuss that one, perhaps for good reason (or not). I'm certainly not either the first or the only person who has suggested guidelines or mechanisms that would make the above feasible. It is perhaps interesting that none of the various proposals have even been allowed to make it into IETF Last Call. I believe strongly that a smaller size of commitment would get us more applicants for _all_ AD slots, if only because it would make the commitment from an employer or sponsor significantly smaller. But accomplishing that requires that the IESG reverse the trend toward ever more responsibilities and an ever larger job and time commitment. Nomcoms could help with that by selecting IESG members who are committed to a reduction in IESG functions and workload as a goal (something I said every year until I concluded that no one was listening). But there is no quick fix like juggling numbers or adding ADs: the first of those would accomplish nothing and risk mid-term resignations and the second would be likely to, in the long run, make things worse. The only thing that surprises me is that this is coming up in only one particular area. Given the implications of going to an employer and saying what amounts to "How about you help the IETF out by giving up the services of someone whom we presume is a highly-skilled designer for, realistically, four or six years, while continuing to pay him (or, better, her) full salary and supplying essentially unconstrained travel and other support resources. During that time, you can certainly use her as an internal consultant or equivalent, but don't expect any real company work to get done. And, by the way, you also have to protect that person's job, role, and advancement path within the company or no one sane would take the position." ...we should probably be pleasantly surprised that anyone, or at least anyone who is professionally competent and useful, is ever allowed to volunteer for any AD job these days. john
- Appointment of a Transport Area Director IETF Chair
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eric Burger
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eggert, Lars
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eric Burger
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director John C Klensin
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eggert, Lars
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eggert, Lars
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Dave Crocker
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Mary Barnes
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Scott Brim
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Michael Richardson
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Scott Brim
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Randy Bush
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director John Leslie
- RE: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Leaf Yeh
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eliot Lear
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eggert, Lars
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eggert, Lars
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Melinda Shore
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eric Burger
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eggert, Lars
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Ralph Droms
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eric Burger
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Hector Santos
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Stewart Bryant
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director John Leslie
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Mary Barnes
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Mary Barnes
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Russ Housley
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Sam Hartman
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eggert, Lars
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Dale R. Worley
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Loa@pi.nu
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eggert, Lars
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Elwyn Davies
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Dave Crocker
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Allison Mankin
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Randy Bush
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Sam Hartman
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Mary Barnes
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Russ Housley
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Mary Barnes
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Scott Brim
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eliot Lear
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Russ Housley
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eliot Lear
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Sam Hartman
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Mary Barnes
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Mary Barnes
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Sam Hartman
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Sam Hartman
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Russ Housley
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Dave Crocker
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Mary Barnes
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Allison Mankin
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Benoit Claise
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Alia Atlas
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Benoit Claise
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Wesley Eddy
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Russ Housley
- RE: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director t.p.
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Martin Stiemerling
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Martin Stiemerling
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Martin Stiemerling
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Martin Stiemerling
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director t.p.
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eggert, Lars
- RE: Appointment of a Transport Area Director l.wood
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director t.p.
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Martin Stiemerling
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eggert, Lars
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Russ Housley
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Eggert, Lars
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Dave Crocker
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director PFRC - jhaas
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Bob Braden
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director t.p.
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Joe Touch
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Dave Crocker
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Melinda Shore
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Joe Touch
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Carsten Bormann
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director David Kessens
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Jari Arkko
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Jari Arkko
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Michael StJohns
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Joe Touch
- How do they select people (was: Appointment of a … SM
- Re: How do they select people joel jaeggli
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Toerless Eckert
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director S Moonesamy
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Toerless Eckert
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Toerless Eckert
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Carsten Bormann
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Toerless Eckert
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Toerless Eckert
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Martin Stiemerling
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Toerless Eckert
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Greg Shepherd
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Sam Hartman
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director David Kessens
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Sam Hartman
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director David Kessens
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Toerless Eckert
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Dave Crocker
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Sam Hartman
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Samuel Weiler
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Martin Stiemerling
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Sam Hartman
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Appointment of a Transport Area Director Martin Stiemerling