Re: tone policing

[Mark Nottingham <[e-mail]>]

OK. We seem to be thinking about different things, which means that specific examples might help. Saying that "anything goes" as far as how you communicate is OK by the IETF seems like an open invitation to unprofessional behaviour -- which *is* bad behaviour.

Also, there's a difference between "ignore it" and "don't sanction it" -- and again a difference between social sanctions and official ones.

Cheers,


> On 3 Sep 2019, at 9:52 am, Keith Moore <[e-mail]> wrote:
> 
> On 9/2/19 7:41 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> 
>> I'm extremely reluctant to wade in here, but nevertheless here I am.
>> 
>>> On 3 Sep 2019, at 7:57 am, Keith Moore <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>> 
>>> It's wrong to dismiss someone's input because of their "tone". It doesn't matter why they have that "tone".   It could have been because of current or past abuse, or simply because they're frustrated.    Or both.   Sometimes the stakes of IETF discussions are high, and sometimes that leads to frustration.
>> Absolutely agreed.
>> 
>>> Ignore the tone as much as possible, concentrate on the substance.
>> Absolutely not agreed, for reasons that have been discussed at length. Ignoring bad behaviour is permission to continue it, and changes the culture of the IETF to exclude valuable contributors. It also makes this a toxic environment.
> 
> "tone" that someone doesn't like is nowhere nearly the same as "bad behavior".   To call something bad behavior, you need a better reason than "tone".
> 
> And legitimizing sanctions based on "tone" is permission for manipulative and abusive people to continue to use that argument to shut down arguments of substance.
> 
>>> To insist on doing otherwise is an insult to the speaker.
>> That's such an interesting assertion. Why is challenging people to behave better an insult?
>> 
> Because in many if not most cases it has nothing to do with behaving better.   It's just a way for someone to justify using their own prejudice to attack a speaker and distract from the speaker's message.
> 
> Keith

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/