Re: Old directions in social media.
Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu> Tue, 05 January 2021 22:51 UTC
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Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 17:51:45 -0500
From: Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu>
To: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Cc: Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org>, IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Old directions in social media.
Message-ID: <X/TtgTtl02AMyns8@mit.edu>
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On Tue, Jan 05, 2021 at 03:30:52PM -0500, Keith Moore wrote: > > No, GitHub unfairly biases against participants who aren't already familiar > with one particular set of open source tools and culture. Some I-D's are written in NROFF, some in XML; does that mean they are biased against people who don't know NROFF or XML? Some standards organizations use Microsoft Office to draft their documents. Bias! Unfair! Hardly. > Having said that I don't disagree that at a late stage of document editing, > submitting diffs can be a good way of contributing. But expecting people > to do this via GitHub is just adding yet another barrier to participation > for most participants, in addition to sometimes making other barriers (like > the need to use xml2rfc or some other obscure markup language) worse. I'm not aware of any working group where the only way to propose a change is by submitting a Github pull request. I would expect discussions on the mailing list would talk about the changing in wording of a paragraph or too, or some kind of meta change in English (let's use the word XXXX instead YYYY everywhere in the document since it's clearer...). If large numbers of discussions are happening outside of the mailing list, whether it be on a Github forum, or on Slack, sure that can be a problem. Although that happens when people chat over a restaurant table back when it was to have face-to-face meetings; so long as such discussions are confirmed on the mailing list, I don't think we've ever disallowed discussions of a spec in venues where not everyone was able to participate --- such as at a restaurant during a face to face meeting. To have the document editor use a particular tool, and to allow *optional* access by those who happen to know that tool? That seems completely reasonable to me. The fact that people who can use a particular tool to reduce effort required of the document editor seems to be a *feature*, not a bug. Does that give them an advantage? Perhaps, in the same way that a person who is fluent in English has an advantage to those that don't. But I don't view that as a fatal bias in the process because some speak English fluently (or understand NROFF, or XML, or BNF), and some do not. > > More generally, as much as the content of this list would confuse aliens > > about where it lives, this is not the Internet Buggy Whip Task Force: > > it's the Internet *Engineering* Task Force. Contributors are (and should > > be) overwhelmingly engineers, and so it's natural for them to prefer > > engineering tools and workflows. Stop complaining; be an engineer; > > figure out the tools; and contribute. > > GitHub is not at all representative of a good engineering tool, much less a > good tool for collaboratively editing text. I'd suggest that we leave that decision to the document editors. If there are people who are actively choosing GitHub, I'd gently suggest to you that perhaps they have a difference of opinion than yours; and we should let the people who are doing the work use what tools they find most powerful. Cheers, - Ted
- Old directions in social media. Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Vittorio Bertola
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- RE: Old directions in social media. Larry Masinter
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kurt Andersen (IETF)
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. - Issue track… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. - Issue track… Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. Fred Baker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. Stephen Farrell
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Theodore Ts'o
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. avri doria
- Re: Old directions in social media. John C Klensin
- Re: Old directions in social media. John C Klensin
- Re: Old directions in social media. Fred Baker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Mark Nottingham
- Re: Old directions in social media. John C Klensin
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Phillip Hallam-Baker
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Wes Hardaker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Richardson
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- RE: Old directions in social media. Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- RE: Old directions in social media. Larry Masinter
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Vittorio Bertola
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel Halpern Direct
- RE: Old directions in social media. ned+ietf
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. Tim Bray
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Richardson
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Old directions in social media. Carsten Bormann
- Re: Old directions in social media. Stephen Farrell
- RE: Old directions in social media. Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Old directions in social media. Eliot Lear
- Re: Old directions in social media. Carsten Bormann
- Re: Old directions in social media. Carsten Bormann
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Thomas
- Re: Old directions in social media. Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: Old directions in social media. Wes Hardaker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. Kyle Rose
- Re: Old directions in social media. tom petch
- RE: Old directions in social media. ned+ietf
- Re: Old directions in social media. Nick Hilliard
- Re: Old directions in social media. Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: Old directions in social media. Michael Richardson
- Re: Old directions in social media. John C Klensin
- Re: Old directions in social media. Eliot Lear
- Re: Old directions in social media. Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Salz, Rich
- Re: Old directions in social media. Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Old directions in social media. Keith Moore
- Re: Old directions in social media. Lloyd W