Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt
Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> Thu, 22 December 2016 08:06 UTC
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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 02:05:57 -0600
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Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Hi, Brian, On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Spencer, > > On 22/12/2016 07:03, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > > So, backing up a tiny bit ... > > > > What follows is me, speaking as a currently serving AD, and as a survivor > > of NEWTRK (so, an inmate who is now helping to steer the asylum, > although I > > didn't take it over). > > > > I have had the pleasure of talking with the most recent three IESGs about > > what UPDATES actually means in relationship to a specific document on a > > current telechat agenda. Those have not been easy discussions. > > Which, I think, explains why tying this down to formal requirements > around the use of <rfc updates="xxxx"> is not easy either. > > > I have been talking to Rick about AD sponsoring some version of his > draft, > > and he's not quite sure what to do next, because any discussion of his > > draft opens a Pandora's Box of stuff that's broken about the way we have > > tried to document protocols over a very long period of time. I was hoping > > that it would be possible to do something useful with a narrow scope, > that > > doesn't involve fixing everything, but might fix a few things. > > > > I'd like to hear opinions about that. > > I think that it's pretty much impossible to make firm rules about this. I > do > think that those writing, reviewing and approving documents SHOULD spend > time > on ensuring that an implementer of the updating and updated RFCs is in no > doubt about what to write in her code. But I just don't see how to reduce > that to a formula. The discussions you mention haven't been easy because > the topic isn't easy. Right. We can make it harder than it needs to be by trying to do too much, but it isn't easy, in any case. > > More broadly, > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-newtrk-repurposing- > isd-04#appendix-A > > is a perfectly serviceable list of stuff that was broken in 2006, and > since > > we haven't changed much since 2006, still seems to be broken today. > > 2004 actually: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3774#section-2.4 > > > > > What I'm remembering about NEWTRK, and other folks may remember it > > differently, was that we had pretty ambitious goals, and proposals like > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-newtrk-repurposing-isd-04 > reflected > > those goals. > > > > For instance, I'm re-reading > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-newtrk-repurposing-isd-04 (one of > > the few NEWTRK documents I'm not even acknowledged in - but I liked it a > > lot at the time), and remembering that we assumed that all STDs would > have > > ISDs (even if they were basically formulaic, with little or no > explanation > > initially). > > > > NEWTRK petered out almost simultaneously with the beginning of narrative > > minutes for IESG telechats, so it's hard for non-IESG members to > > reconstruct all the concerns expressed at the time, but I'm remembering > > discussions about who would write this descriptive text, and who would > > approve it - and talking to at least a couple of IESG members after the > > fact, who'd told me they'd assumed the IESG would have to provide those > > descriptions, or at least approve them. > > You can also look at the minutes of the 2005 IESG retreat: > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/archive/iesg-retreat-2005-04.txt > and the resulting IESG message: > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/newtrk/current/msg00991.html Thanks for the pointers. > Clearly there were individuals in the IESG with divergent opinions, > so that message was a compromise. > > > What I'm wondering now, is how un-ambitious we could be, and still do > > something useful to get started. > > > > John did a couple of examples of ISDs, in > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-newtrk-sample-isd-00.txt > (John, > > is that the best pointer for this?) on SMTP (complicated) and on POP/IMAP > > Authentication with CRAM-MD5 (much simpler), circa 2004 or so. > > > > Is it worth taking a look at that, and producing samples for a couple of > > protocols that are more complicated than a single RFC, and less > complicated > > than https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc5411/ (for SIP) or > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7414/ (for TCP), and seeing what we > end > > up with? > > First, an observation: nothing in the last ten years has actually prevented > someone proposing an ISD to the relevant AD as a Proposed Standard under > the "applicability statement" category defined by RFC2026. Agreed, there > would > be some compromises compared to the actual ISD proposal, but IMHO nothing > in our > rules would prevent such a publication. For example, we could suggest that > the authors of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-clw-rfc6434-bis-00 > format that document as an ISD. > > I had ISDs in mind when I originally drafted https://www.ietf.org/about/ > process-docs.html > > So yes, a nearly-ISD experiment could start today, IMHO. > This sounds right to me. > > Administrivia: both Jari's position on the IESG and mine are under review > > by the current Nomcom, and I'm loath to get very far down the road > without > > talking to Jari's replacement, and without knowing whether I will be able > > to AD sponsor drafts after IETF 98, so I'd like to do some homework now, > > but not go crazy yet. > > Fair enough, but if the community wants to do this, that's a community > choice. Of course. My point is that I'd rather be sure that I can AD sponsor work on this after March, rather than start something that another AD will have to finish. Spencer
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Andrew G. Malis
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Erik Wilde
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Joel M. Halpern
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt John C Klensin
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Heather Flanagan
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Joel M. Halpern
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Bob Hinden
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Jari Arkko
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Erik Wilde
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Erik Wilde
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt John C Klensin
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Scott O. Bradner
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt John C Klensin
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Scott O. Bradner
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Alia Atlas
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt John C Klensin
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Michael Richardson
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Michael Richardson
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt John C Klensin
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Scott O. Bradner
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- RE: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt John C Klensin
- RE: I-D Action: draft-wilde-updating-rfcs-00.txt John C Klensin