Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon need updating

Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Mon, 08 June 2020 18:45 UTC

Return-Path: <nico@cryptonector.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16EEC3A0E11 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 11:45:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oUfSW05gzeqY for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 11:45:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from anteater.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (anteater.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6507B3A09FB for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 11:45:53 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com
Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B2C181562; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 18:45:52 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a99.g.dreamhost.com (100-97-68-20.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.97.68.20]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A6403181B71; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 18:45:51 +0000 (UTC)
X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com
Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a99.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.8); Mon, 08 Jun 2020 18:45:52 +0000
X-MC-Relay: Neutral
X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com
X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost
X-Tart-Name: 2fabba1003f38bd9_1591641952147_170749794
X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1591641952146:2312997833
X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1591641952146
Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a99.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a99.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48B917F0E3; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 11:45:51 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=IjrHke0Vj2qZGa KRp2GP4Lj0X5Q=; b=gS3d/fbBhRKIoOV9psqHwHdYNAMzEGQIc/Ckv1w4S33Kxg gAYHhRa/XBkagKWeFdDSkZEuY4fM0qMOW2f3H6B6KJiqqK/om90DhdXOL0TpWve8 rJ53hc6wP31pZzL/rQqg9GUVPBPnfjo9rqB5quw33oQnTT/d1yr8vlZu/Fk60=
Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a99.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA4437F0E1; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 11:45:48 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 13:45:44 -0500
X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a99
From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com>
Cc: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: The TCP and UDP checksum algorithm may soon need updating
Message-ID: <20200608184543.GZ18021@localhost>
References: <8946c5bf-0f6b-7a52-6326-dda59a78a798@mtcc.com> <AF28EDA6-0402-4578-A6C4-B3136F6C8650@strayalpha.com> <20200608171628.GX18021@localhost> <909178cc-c1b6-2dce-09eb-f8d28b63968c@mtcc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <909178cc-c1b6-2dce-09eb-f8d28b63968c@mtcc.com>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28)
X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK
X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100
X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrudehvddgieelucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpffftgfetoffjqffuvfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhepfffhvffukfhfgggtuggjfgesthdtredttdervdenucfhrhhomheppfhitghoucghihhllhhirghmshcuoehnihgtohestghrhihpthhonhgvtghtohhrrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefftdektefhueetveeigfefgeejteejvdfhhefgvddtfeeujeehleeguefhgffhgfenucfkphepvdegrddvkedruddtkedrudekfeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphdphhgvlhhopehlohgtrghlhhhoshhtpdhinhgvthepvdegrddvkedruddtkedrudekfedprhgvthhurhhnqdhprghthheppfhitghoucghihhllhhirghmshcuoehnihgtohestghrhihpthhonhgvtghtohhrrdgtohhmqedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehnihgtohestghrhihpthhonhgvtghtohhrrdgtohhmpdhnrhgtphhtthhopehnihgtohestghrhihpthhonhgvtghtohhrrdgtohhm
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/JDgfV6igQWvFyPfE119jLfpFzfY>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 18:45:55 -0000

On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 10:24:10AM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote:
> On 6/8/20 10:16 AM, Nico Williams wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 10:11:09AM -0700, Joe Touch wrote:
> > > > On Jun 8, 2020, at 10:00 AM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
> > > > i assume that you can hack ipsec to emulate clients not having certs.
> > > It is called BTNS.  See RFC 5387.
> > Yes, but you also need RFC5660 implementations to make it more
> > meaningful.  Still, if all you want is error detection, BTNS will do.
> 
> this is undoubtedly a complete rehash, but who controls what the root CA's
> are with ipsec? is that something that the application layer has some say-so
> over? could my app say i don't care who the root CA is?

The idea with RFCs 5387 and 5660 is that there is no need for an IPsec
PKI for IPsec to be useful, and, indeed, that IPsec for authentication
is tricky because -after all- it deals in... IP addresses, which are not
useful for authentication.

Instead, use IPsec for session crypto and use channel binding to bind
IPsec channels to higher-layer protocols where authentication can and
does happen.

Nico
--