Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? (was: Re: John/rsoc: Re: Page numbers in RFCs questions / preferences)
Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> Thu, 29 October 2020 19:10 UTC
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 15:10:16 -0400
Message-ID: <CAF4+nEFH9_Gpv-fNaYwc+08emt8ahohXEkGRMmZYhEqWETrRVg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? (was: Re: John/rsoc: Re: Page numbers in RFCs questions / preferences)
To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Cc: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, Working Group Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>, Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>, John Levine <ietf@johnlevine.com>, IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, RFC Interest <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, rsoc@iab.org
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I endorse Warren's comments. I use the text versions heavily and I believe that one of the formats available should preserve the traditional RFC format. -- All formats should have a Tables of Content. (Well, I guess I would agree that if an RFC had less than two sections, it wouldn't need a ToC, but I don't see how that is possible with the current requirements.) -- If a format is paginated, it should have page numbers. (A warning could be added something like "Warning: The page numbers in this document depend on its presentation format and will differ in other renditions.") -- If a format has a ToC and pages numbers, those page numbers should appear in the ToC and just before the ToC would be a good place for the warning suggested above. Thanks, Donald =============================== Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 2386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 4:02 PM Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:20 PM John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> wrote: > > > [ Massive SNIP ] > > > > > (a) They are traditional in the RFC Series and > > preserving that rendering in a format consistent with a > > significant fraction of the first 7000 or so of RFCs > > would seem to have some advantages. Of course, no one > > is forced to use them, any more than anyone has been > > forced to use the standard text form since HTML and PDF > > forms became generally available years ago. > > > > (b) Of the fraction of the community that still prefers > > to use the plain text form (at least sometimes) and for > > one purpose or another, some fraction of them prefer to > > have the headers and footers and many of those prefer, > > or are not disturbed by, the page numbers. Because many > > of the arguments against page numbers seem to be coming > > from people who do not find the plain text form useful, > > probably we should pay attention to that preference ... > > or start making the case for getting rid of the plain > > text form entirely, perhaps because those who prefer it > > (for any purpose) need to be persuaded to join the > > modern era and get with the programs. > > > > I realize you aren't actually pushing this point, but this seemed like > the clearest expression of one of my concerns with this entire thread, > and so I'm choosing to hook onto it... > > Full disclosure: > I'm one of the people who both believes that there is value in the > "traditional" aspect of the series, and the fact that RFC17 looks the > same as RFC42, which looks the same as RFC4217, which looks the same > as RFC8217 is a good thing. > I also like and use the text formats - I sometimes print out RFCS, I > have tooling which greps through documents for things, I generate > statistics, etc. It's a personal preference. > > I've gotten 2 distinctly negative impressions from this thread: > 1: "You need to join the modern era and get with the program" sums it > up well. HTML / flowed output is the new world, liking the text format > is bad and you should feel bad[0]. > > 2: There were extensive discussions around the new format, and the > lack of page numbers was mentioned. You were not paying attention when > this happened. Not only do you lose any right to discuss this, but you > were lazy and should feel bad. > > I'll happily admit that I didn't follow the new format discussions > closely, and that I do read a lot of things (including books) in > formats which don't have clear "pages", but the thing that is worrying > me is the underlying "and you should feel bad" tone in much of this > discussion. > > Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive (or that I just miss seeing IETFers > in person), but it feels to me like the "and you should feel bad" > subtext seems to be cropping up more and more. We used to generally > assume that someone who had a bad or silly idea just had a bad or > silly *idea* - but it now we often seem to be implying that the person > is bad or silly. > > Other than being able to meet in person again, I'm not sure how we get > back to where our base assumptions are that other IETFers are friends, > and are also trying to do the right thing... > > W > [0]: Meme reminder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG2KMkQLZmI > > > > Probably I'm missing something important but, if the above > > analysis is even nearly correct, I don't understand why we are > > still having this conversation. > > > > john > > > > > -- > I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad > idea in the first place. > This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing > regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair > of pants. > ---maf > >
- FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty pleas… Toerless Eckert
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… David Noveck
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Jim Fenton
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Jim Fenton
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… David Noveck
- Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Robert Sparks
- Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (… Carsten Bormann
- Setting Reply-To Robert Sparks
- Re: Setting Reply-To Derek Atkins
- Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page numb… Toerless Eckert
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … John C Klensin
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Mark Andrews
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Julian Reschke
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Keith Moore
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Julian Reschke
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Warren Kumari
- Re: [rfc-i] Jim: Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Mark Andrews
- Re: [rfc-i] Jim: Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Larry Masinter
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Keith Moore
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Julian Reschke
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Keith Moore
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Julian Reschke
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Donald Eastlake
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Christian Huitema
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Mark Andrews
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … John C Klensin
- Re: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Leonard Giuliano
- Re: [rfc-i] Jim: Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Toerless Eckert
- RE: Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Black, David
- Re: [irsg] Jim: Re: [rfc-i] FIXED: Poll: RFCs wit… Jane Coffin
- you should not feel bad about I-D document format… Keith Moore
- Re: you should not feel bad about I-D document fo… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: [rfc-i] Jim: Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … John C Klensin
- Re: [rfc-i] Jim: Re: FIXED: Poll: RFCs with page … Larry Masinter
- Re: Authoring tools survey (Was: Jim: Re: [rfc-i]… IETF Executive Director