Re: why exactly is HRPC for, was Diversity and offensive terminology in RFCs

Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org> Sat, 22 September 2018 07:43 UTC

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Subject: Re: why exactly is HRPC for, was Diversity and offensive terminology in RFCs
To: lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk, IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>
References: <20180920233440.238CA20051DDE5@ary.qy> <5d3da769-5243-f6ee-35b2-d63f9e43b33a@cisco.com> <4c8aa4ce-b491-b816-9967-e723b8b3be03@digitaldissidents.org> <325538173.14441870.1537527705103@mail.yahoo.com> <6EC8B12E-0908-4AED-B2E4-6ADA37BF01DB@nohats.ca> <1275348340.14654769.1537539052249@mail.yahoo.com> <db02fca4-34d8-e30f-f494-a0fe342ac05a@article19.org> <1663509122.15011960.1537574110480@mail.yahoo.com>
From: Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org>
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Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 10:43:13 +0300
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Hi,

Disregard the subject, please. But the rest of the message was meant to
land in your inboxes and the ietf@ archives.

-Mallory

On 22/09/2018 02:55, lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Mallory,
> 
> 
> judging by the subject line, you may not have intended to send this to
> the list in its current form, and I'm a bit puzzled as to who you're
> asking permission of. Do you want that particular mail to be disregarded?
> 
> 
> (as previously noted, when you hear 'folks', prepare to be patronised by
> an American. it's a trigger word... language matters!)
> 
> 
> Lloyd Wood
> lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
> 
> On Saturday, September 22, 2018, 3:46 am, Mallory Knodel
> <mallory@article19.org> wrote:
> 
>     Hi,
> 
>     New co-chair of HRPC here.
> 
>     First, I'd like to thank folks who are defending the existence of our
>     research group. And I'd like to deeply appreciate those throughout this
>     long thread here, and in HRPC, who are reading and responding, even
>     though talking about personal and social issues of oppression can be
>     emotionally taxing. I know that I am emotionally exhausted by it.
> 
>     I couldn't agree more with everything that Avri said.
> 
>     For my contribution in this thread, I want to address Eliot Lear,
> 
>     > the co-chair has attempted to stifle debate
> 
>     I will admit that based on my experience and expertise that I disagree
>     with nearly everything that he has said in this discussion. But it has
>     not been my intention to "stifle debate".
> 
>     In one response I wrote,
> 
>     > I'm going to stop you right there.
> 
>     Of course I didn't actually stop him as he had pre-synchronously written
>     his message. I also didn't stop him from writing subsequent messages nor
>     did I want to. Apologies, Eliot. It was nothing more than a debate
>     gimmick and turn of phrase, but language matters! I won't use it again.
> 
>     I've drafted a document to collect the various arguments and elements.
>     Some of which Neils has just shared back to the thread at Alissa's
>     suggestion. I hope to share that soon.
> 
>     This debate, at least in part, might be new to the IETF but it is not
>     new to communities of technologists. I've been part of some of these
>     communities and I'm glad the debate is happening here, as difficult as
>     it might be.
> 
>     With thanks,
>     -Mallory
> 
>     On 21/09/2018 17:10, Lloyd Wood wrote:
>     > Paul
>     >
>     > "The arguments so far (from you and John Levine) have been
>     > that since HRPC didn’t attain world peace and
>     > universal human rights, it should be closed down."
>     >
>     > I can see where John suggested that.
>     >
>     > But where did I suggest or endorse that idea?
>     >
>     > I suspect you're confusing skepticism for stifling dissent.
>     > And that you're confusing me with Eliot Lear.
>     >
>     > (on my mail agent behaviour, I'm suspecting the mail agent.)
>     >
>     > L.
>     >  
>     > Lloyd Wood lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk <mailto:lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk>
>     http://about.me/lloydwood 
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     > *From:* Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca <mailto:paul@nohats.ca>>
>     > *To:* Lloyd Wood <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
>     <mailto:lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk>>
>     > *Cc:* "ietf@ietf.org <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>" <ietf@ietf.org
>     <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>>
>     > *Sent:* Friday, 21 September 2018, 23:38
>     > *Subject:* Re: why exactly is HRPC for, was Diversity and offensive
>     > terminology in RFCs
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >> On Sep 21, 2018, at 07:01, Lloyd Wood
>     > <lloyd.wood=40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org
>     <mailto:40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>
>     > <mailto:40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org
>     <mailto:40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>>> wrote:
>     >>
>     >> Niels,
>     >>
>     >> you are surprised about this conversation here and now on HPRC,
>     >> despite you being the very person who initiated this conversation
>     >> introducing the topic of HPRC to the main list?
>     >
>     > Niels introduced a topic from HPRC that he thought warranted
>     discussion
>     > outside of HPRC. Since HPRC per definition is about ALL of IETF
>     > considering the impact of IETF protocols on human rights, that is
>     > appropriate and expected output of the group.
>     >
>     > What Niels was surprised about was some people’s reaction to close
>     down
>     > HPRC, and I concur with Niels’ surprise. The arguments so far
>     (from you
>     > and John Levine) have been that since HRPC didn’t attain world
>     peace and
>     > universal human rights, it should be closed down. It fails to
>     understand
>     > the groups goal. If that kind of measuring is used, the Security Area
>     > and IPv6 groups should have been closed down years ago.
>     >
>     >> And you complain
>     >> about someone expressing a contrary and dissenting position while
>     >> emailing from **digitaldissidents**..org? Irony much?
>     >
>     > Niels is not complaining, you are. And this attack doesn’t belong on
>     > this list.
>     >
>     >> (I'd also like to know why my replies to you aren't cc'ing the
>     >> list by default; that does look like an attempt to stifle debate,
>     >> but I don't see the expected Reply-To: in headers.)
>     >
>     > And now you seem to imply the ietf@ietf.org <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:ietf@ietf.org <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>> list
> 
>     > settings are somehow Niels’ fault. If you want to complain about
>     these,
>     > a new thread devoid of HRPC discussion, just discussions this
>     > particular’s list settings would be the appropriate way to raise
>     this as
>     > an issue to discuss..
>     >
>     >
>     >> remember: social justice warriors have never been to war.
>     >
>     >
>     > You are trying to prove that you “mastered”  flame baiting?
>     >
>     > I guess if anything, you showed that IETF has a lot of work to do to
>     > become more inclusive and considerate, and if we really need to
>     discuss
>     > whether HRPC should be closed down or not (I don’t think we do) than
>     > your behavior shows the need to keep it open.
>     >
>     > Paul
> 
>     >
>     >
> 
> 
>     -- 
>     Mallory Knodel
>     Head of Digital :: article19.org
>     gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780
> 
> 


-- 
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780