Moderation in general [was Re: Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action for Timothy Mcsweeney]

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Wed, 12 June 2024 21:02 UTC

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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 09:02:25 +1200
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Subject: Moderation in general [was Re: Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action for Timothy Mcsweeney]
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To: Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
References: <ZmkvptjpDi6iZ2p6@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <2CCBF6CF-5E66-4D6A-8589-627E738E9140@nohats.ca> <30F271E9-C5CC-4636-BDDB-4B64AAC3C2AE@akamai.com> <C72F0549-E46D-45FE-BA60-D219D9F2F65D@csperkins.org>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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I hope the moderators will excuse me Bcc'ing this message to the Last Call list in an attempt to switch discussion to the main IETF list.

I think we do indeed need to review moderation as a whole and pick a venue to discuss
draft-ecahc-moderation.

On 13-Jun-24 05:26, Colin Perkins wrote:
> 
> 
> On 12 Jun 2024, at 15:52, Salz, Rich wrote:
> 
>>> I personally still have not returned to the IETF list.
>>
>> That's highly unfortunate in my opinion. I do not understand how someone can feel themselves to be in the leadership of an organization without participating, or at least reading, the one general-purpose public forum that organization has.

I agree. When I was in IAB or IESG positions, I always read that list, even when it was behaving badly. Attempting to split off general discussions into specialised lists usually fails, and as the diversity list demonstrated, does not prevent toxicity,

>>
>>> The biggest problem of BCP38 is that every sane normal action to restrict abuse results in more toxic discussions that a certain amount of abuse should be tolerated in the name of anti-censorship, lack of hard headedness of the victims and supposed technical merit of the abusers.

I'm not sure I've seen that, this time around, and PR-actions are pretty rare.

>>
>> This view, when expressed by someone with such a limited view of the organization, carries almost no weight with me.
>>
>> Anyone on the IESG who does not follow the IETF list should abstain from voting on all PR actions.

I wouldn't go that far, because the mail archive is clear enough.

> 
> In the past five years, only 7% of IETF participants have posted to the IETF list (defining a participant as someone who sent email to any IETF mailing list).

That sounds right, and I wish it wasn't so. We could ask people, but I suspect that abstention from this list is usually not because of toxicity, but because many participants are focussed on technical work and not interested in the non-technical stuff. (I'm more worried by the low population of ietf-announce, which seems to me to be essential reading for all.)

> 
> In the same time period, 30% of the messages sent to the IETF list came from 10 people.

Guilty as charged ;-).

    Brian
> 
> Colin
>