Moderation in general [was Re: Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action for Timothy Mcsweeney]

Brian E Carpenter <> Wed, 12 June 2024 21:02 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9567FC1D4CD7; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 14:02:30 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -7.108
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key)
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FOlQvoRnxlPk; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 14:02:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BCC1C1840C6; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 14:02:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1f480624d0fso2771985ad.1; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 14:02:30 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20230601; t=1718226149; x=1718830949;; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:reply-to:references:cc :to:content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=i/dJkNz9xzL681P9uRe6DYhZg+Skbuj7gUtjE7/wkjM=; b=hnrEWANdhBz9brVGKon7N6cXJiTGdMDojtlTu1lqXILuYRu8JqXX2+OZp7xqBoo+Z1 xK7JXXg+XYXL/ZDINpwndq1r8FGFDs+M/x0YtCcCXKYAmhHUO0RwY2B7JFIZJ1bTTSUJ SDl34bJb0yYkFq9Xf8AOHrKGuwsM9wRbgYcOPJfcsallN2f/dexeYbywKy0jNK4qR56Y 8JP+A4PHi2MUJEyAAXCKzSLg35p3jB0emefF9YAxxkHjw6kJqZV//A9cSCyfx4P2zKAO NgLdrKahRD2CIIwaDPkoo5Bw0OFm0kK+2nzA4nKmfWhP9w5ox6CSfpPlEDH9vyG/iJaQ WCnw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20230601; t=1718226149; x=1718830949; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:reply-to:references:cc :to:content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=i/dJkNz9xzL681P9uRe6DYhZg+Skbuj7gUtjE7/wkjM=; b=XlJKU7szVaH3PY0BECveYH+kTpbmNY5pKbAaPHWZngdFBpYFco5rSofOfbNX8yJCb+ PhkaizzAYqcPeJn/RG6ibNVBFxGrEUn5IBo8hQh7+o/epeD6wCdyID0kJhdwFZJhRXC2 Gtw0GMx79K3sM9IjLZ2cvd8GFk5j1q9oOSxABayDu/Vh/sSN3I7wDx7vheFSlJ7gYlKS 1n1jiW2CW2HgOI0T7u2cPqAoec43rjTE3DdgrGXDZhoFUD/LJybXpkuUq3jnw1qU+paC CU9SjoRSYNKRCk54sRyHHuMsfwI+vlL0akd7qWgHd3lcCBf7kRHQE36hJlvhQ1sxAb0L zHIQ==
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCW+R9j24AY+XtfXaOPIzb3brXVmroelF1pS+yRFp2xkbbgAmAq9SS0H7PdWs9VtCu6cWUvUQh76dHc9+ONQMd4GQg8=
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzKKVaBXZYG9BWS72JhWnLb9w04ZIGbyLlOqewIgLgBtvAG8EZm +cabewHDr204cTRDmTQHAVCDU3i4R1pzIwRuhLeO/Bk/XzdEYLfXu8V4VfQC
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEJudGIM8jJknBEt7r5qYiCHuI38tIXlqSnP0HusBLKAThn0oqQi5/NxWJBMt1r9GtiUpTR8Q==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d507:b0:1f6:fcd9:5b8d with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1f83b52243dmr34575885ad.9.1718226149447; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 14:02:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPV6:2404:4400:541d:a600:44b7:2c2e:2bc6:8707? ([2404:4400:541d:a600:44b7:2c2e:2bc6:8707]) by with ESMTPSA id d9443c01a7336-1f6ee3d5a17sm91947645ad.146.2024. (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Jun 2024 14:02:29 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 09:02:25 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Subject: Moderation in general [was Re: Last Call: BCP 83 PR-Action for Timothy Mcsweeney]
Content-Language: en-US
To: Colin Perkins <>, "Salz, Rich" <>
References: <> <> <> <>
From: Brian E Carpenter <>
In-Reply-To: <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation;; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: IETF discussion list <>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc4
Precedence: list
Reply-To: IETF discussion list <>
List-Id: "IETF-Discussion. This is the most general IETF mailing list, intended for discussion of technical, procedural, operational, and other topics for which no dedicated mailing lists exist." <>
Archived-At: <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Owner: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Subscribe: <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>

I hope the moderators will excuse me Bcc'ing this message to the Last Call list in an attempt to switch discussion to the main IETF list.

I think we do indeed need to review moderation as a whole and pick a venue to discuss

On 13-Jun-24 05:26, Colin Perkins wrote:
> On 12 Jun 2024, at 15:52, Salz, Rich wrote:
>>> I personally still have not returned to the IETF list.
>> That's highly unfortunate in my opinion. I do not understand how someone can feel themselves to be in the leadership of an organization without participating, or at least reading, the one general-purpose public forum that organization has.

I agree. When I was in IAB or IESG positions, I always read that list, even when it was behaving badly. Attempting to split off general discussions into specialised lists usually fails, and as the diversity list demonstrated, does not prevent toxicity,

>>> The biggest problem of BCP38 is that every sane normal action to restrict abuse results in more toxic discussions that a certain amount of abuse should be tolerated in the name of anti-censorship, lack of hard headedness of the victims and supposed technical merit of the abusers.

I'm not sure I've seen that, this time around, and PR-actions are pretty rare.

>> This view, when expressed by someone with such a limited view of the organization, carries almost no weight with me.
>> Anyone on the IESG who does not follow the IETF list should abstain from voting on all PR actions.

I wouldn't go that far, because the mail archive is clear enough.

> In the past five years, only 7% of IETF participants have posted to the IETF list (defining a participant as someone who sent email to any IETF mailing list).

That sounds right, and I wish it wasn't so. We could ask people, but I suspect that abstention from this list is usually not because of toxicity, but because many participants are focussed on technical work and not interested in the non-technical stuff. (I'm more worried by the low population of ietf-announce, which seems to me to be essential reading for all.)

> In the same time period, 30% of the messages sent to the IETF list came from 10 people.

Guilty as charged ;-).

> Colin