Re: Making headway in the IETF [was Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF]

Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Tue, 23 February 2021 21:46 UTC

Return-Path: <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C99483A0CC7 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:46:09 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k_xl25g6CPk3 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:46:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 083A13A0CC5 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:46:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CCE99E7 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:46:06 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:46:07 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=pS74xe 5GjTi5G8UMLLezNdlOEgqeuYhO5/joJ2e6/HE=; b=FV/6KnOLLAU1M6JqKiIKk4 aZb3jiCrwHkapP6UoJRZ4mo3s5tvEsEXAlfGy/2JMX464c9VqrrsJvNtIvccLRpl m+DMEYx/8HjyQSw5pQywpA5K7foNmqBaz6ikyJHwTbD+hy67kB0ErArREuSMKLzW o65CSDNTzCeHSxzMgXYwfGmTe9PZDMGMAvNcuztK5iCD/y7x1fD3z4QyZAJ/xkgp x56Vjw5K+Fuz9I899QxlR/sMBLFvxuX+46FBNVZT308JTW/qJfm4W9g9Hd4D/LTk pT9QK0q2M7qfoBS2tDyR39oTLl845Rzwru6HL/WX2a6NEPuGsFHJl500SpxXvVxw ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:nnc1YCeCuEDAV9LFs9aRRps7dBUILvgzjCWAChP78S6Fjv5K9WCx2A> <xme:nnc1YJIy_7QW_woGA_TT2C4CoCC1fR-ArFTDfrO7ipsR5AUk5-4irIYv0NlumQYwa a5qjlFQNMu4kA>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrkeehgdduhedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgesrgdtre ertdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepveefteduieegtd elvddvtddufeejjeffvdefteejieeulefgtdfggedtffektedunecukfhppedutdekrddv vddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:nnc1YPLRmAczQE2F6H167QKLUEHUN3PhzOrbfAvOaMm04pZIM_zHMA> <xmx:nnc1YIVeBxi40Ph2Z0oWNXaw0zFmr88ldSuaPulo-I8NbO9OFHOm9w> <xmx:nnc1YIm6YjOIK-SSs1UIPUGgsESRWyRQ6bCxdtjDfoLc9tlhubIHtg> <xmx:nnc1YAS5o6YzFYfvw5FDeog24kLrr5d0UiHacFMwcYTpWS_wMMQMzw>
Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0510F24005C for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:46:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Making headway in the IETF [was Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF]
To: ietf@ietf.org
References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <3c2d646d-f18d-4d88-b458-29dbd486432b@beta.fastmail.com> <AM0PR08MB371669108E9CEA561BEC9EF6FA809@AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <d6648437-332b-4668-a1c7-591f2c287539@dogfood.fastmail.com> <CADNypP8GKTY-Jhpb6AEfcpXOihwLap7OrrByNemGc2GNvZLeog@mail.gmail.com> <10fd9d2d-afb4-44aa-b618-fb5ce1efa69e@dogfood.fastmail.com> <4ac8639c-dc89-799c-f41f-b585911207b6@gmail.com>
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Message-ID: <50f7e27c-6fcc-942a-c928-29784e1390d6@network-heretics.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:46:05 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <4ac8639c-dc89-799c-f41f-b585911207b6@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------68B2ED1C18F58AF3C0CAFA76"
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/Jrd8drVOiq8BQvcPxQxiHv4xDZo>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 21:46:10 -0000

On 2/23/21 3:20 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> I suggest up-levelling this sub-thread away from one specific WG to a more general point, which IMNSHO is not really about diversity or inclusiveness at all.
>
> Some newcomers to the IETF, even if they have many years of professional experience, find it hard to get started here, and a good fraction of them give up. (I dare say that we could actually measure that with a clever look at the statistics.) In particular, people with a specific goal (get WG X to do Y) are often disappointed.
>
> I don't think that has anything to do with diversity or inclusivity. It has to do with:
> a) The Internet is complicated. Problems that look simple turn out to be very hard. That can look like the IETF is being difficult.
> b) The IETF has learned the hard way that narrowly chartered WGs tend to succeed (or fail quickly). If WG X isn't chartered to do Y, it won't get done there.
> c) Yes, the process of building support for Y, and if necessary building support for a Y BOF and forming a Y WG, is complex both technically and sociologically. That's nothing to do with diversity or inclusiveness. It's just hard.
> d) Sometimes the IETF has actually taken a strategic decision that precludes Y. I'm not sure what aspects of privacy/encryption Dominique refers to, but there's no doubt that the IETF has long-standing consensuses in those areas and*of course*  that would be very hard to change. That doesn't excuse bad interpersonal behaviour, of course.

I mostly agree with the above, except that I do think that inclusivity 
(or lack thereof) is often a factor for reasons other than you cite 
above.   People /are/ discriminated against because of their employers 
(or who their employers aren't), the way they use the English language 
and whether that causes them difficulty, their cultural conventions and 
how well those conventions mesh with expectations of IETF participants, 
their technical backgrounds, whether they seem to "know their places" in 
others' eyes, and a great many other reasons.

(I do take some exception to (b).   IETF often fails to resolve 
fundamental tussles by making WGs that are narrowly focused, and this 
results in a kind of fragmentation of the Internet that encourages 
architectural dead ends.   But trying to resolve the tussle as a 
precondition for trying to make progress doesn't always work well either.)

Keith