Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN changes ?)
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Fri, 04 July 2008 16:51 UTC
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Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:51:44 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>, Frank Ellermann <hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz@gmail.com>
Subject: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN changes ?)
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--On Friday, 04 July, 2008 09:14 +1000 Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org> wrote: > >> Mark Andrews wrote: >> >> > The Internet went to multi-label hostnames ~20 years ago. >> >> As noted in RFC 2821 as "one dot required" syntax, also >> mentioned in RFC 3696. Recently *overruled* by 2821bis. > > There is a difference between allowing protocol to be used > in a "local" only mode (single label) and a "global" mode > (multi-label) and saying you must support single label in > a global context. > > Single label names are local in scope. Attempting to use > them in a global context does not work. As the names in > "." get more interesting the probability of collisions with > existing names goes up. Not many people choose two letter > labels for the least significant parts of their host names > unless they are choosing their initials. > > Museum on the other hand is a real English word. I'm sure > you will find lots other uses of "museum" in the DNS. The > same thing will happen with other TLD's as the rules are > relaxed. > > Single label hostnames are not globally unique. They SHOULD > NOT be used in a context where globally unique names are > required. Mark, With the understanding that I agree with everything you say above, there are some interesting problems with SMTP (and maybe some other protocols) as well as with how ICANN is proceeding. In no particular order... (1) ICANN is well aware of the problem you mention with "museum" and presumably with "coop", "jobs", "name", and maybe some others I've forgotten at the moment. As I understand it, they have explicitly decided to ignore that problem except for names of countries. The problem also gets orders of magnitude worse as we move to IDNs, especially it we also consider transliterations of non-ASCII strings into scripts other than the those to which the relevant word is native (whatever that means -- the concept is extremely dubious for some languages). Whether the decision to enable the searching risks associated with the use of names, rather than short mnemonics of pre-specified length, is the result of realizing that the problem is hopelessly intractable (it is) or the result of rampant commercialism is probably in the eye of the beholder. (2) Regardless of what some of us may think about the desirability (or not) of associating services with TLD names, as soon as we accept the idea that top-level domain names have semantic content and are associated with fields of endeavor, types of organizations or enterprises, etc., the desire to associate, e.g., directory services or "help" functions with the TLD follows almost naturally. For years, we managed to dodge that problem with conventional subdomains (e.g., nic.example.), but we have not, to my knowledge, ever promoted those uses via, e.g., a BCP that strongly recommends them (unlike the email case, where RFC2142 does just that). In the absence of reserved-name recommendations strong enough to substitute for services associated with TLDs (and the horse has probably let the barn on doing that), I think it is inevitable that we will see more and more demand for the functionality implied by some-protocol://TLD-name./ (with or without that trailing dot). Some sort of directory service for the domain is the obvious case, but there are others. I can think of only three ways to get that functionality: (i) Associate services with the TLD in the DNS. (ii) Install a TLD wildcard that points to the relevant services (and pray that it doesn't point to anything else) (iii) Reserve conventional subdomain names so that an application can turn "some-protocol://TLD-name/" into, e.g., some-protocol://some-protocol.TLD-name/ But, as discussed above, I believe we have waited much too long to do anything effective about the third possibility. And simply saying "this is a bad way to use the DNS" is clearly not going to get us anywhere in the current environment, even if it were true. (3) SMTP does not permit an explicit trailing period in addresses on the wire, so RCPT TO:<somemailbox@example.> is a syntax error. RFC 2821 permitted it (as Frank points out), unlike RFC 821 (which, I think, predated the discovery that being able to explicitly specify the root was sometimes important). Discussion about 2821bis concluded that permitting the trailing period caused more problems than it solved, so we are back to not permitting it. What 2821bis says in essence is that it is the responsibility of the sending application to figure out whether, if a user presents "somemailbox@example", that implies the "example" TLD or an invitation to start searching. The application is expected to provide local syntax when necessary to assist in making that distinction. So, much as I'd like it if we could say "Single label names are local in scope...does not work", I fear that it is unrealistic in practice unless we can somehow turn the clock back 15 years or so. If one even wanted to try to do that, the first step would be to write that BCP that recommended a set of role-specific second-level names. Changes to the 2606 list are irrelevant to that goal. john _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN chan… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … SM
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … SM
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Abley
- RE: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Lawrence Conroy
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Baptista
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … SM
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John Levine
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Bill Manning
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Dave Crocker
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Philip Guenther
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Tony Finch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Dave Crocker
- RE: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Thomas Narten
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Philip Guenther
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Paul Hoffman
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John Levine
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Thomas Narten
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … James Seng
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Steve Crocker
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Paul Hoffman
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John Levine
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Paul Hoffman
- RE: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Lyman Chapin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Steve Crocker
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- RE: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Bernard Aboba
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- RE: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Bernard Aboba
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … SM
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … SM
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … James Seng
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … James Seng
- RE: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Bernard Aboba
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … James Seng
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … James Seng
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Update… John C Klensin
- RE: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Bernard Aboba
- Single-letter names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2606 … John C Klensin
- RE: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John C Klensin
- RE: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Bernard Aboba
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John Levine
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Dave Crocker
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Mark Andrews
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Mark Andrews
- RE: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John C Klensin
- RE: Single-letter names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2… JFC Morfin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John Levine
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names Karl Auerbach
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John Levine
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names Frank Ellermann
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Mark Andrews
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names Frank Ellermann
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John Levine
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John C Klensin
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Mark Andrews
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John Levine
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Mark Andrews
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John Levine
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … moore
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Jaap Akkerhuis
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Lyman Chapin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Lyman Chapin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Vint Cerf
- Re: Single-letter names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2… William Tan
- Re: Single-letter names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2… Vint Cerf
- RE: Single-letter names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2… Edmon Chung
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Dave Crocker
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John C Klensin
- RE: Single-letter names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2… michael.dillon
- RE: Single-letter names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2… Ted Hardie
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John Levine
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John Levine
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Dave Crocker
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Bill Manning
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Theodore Tso
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Bill Manning
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Theodore Tso
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Willie Gillespie
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Karl Auerbach
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Theodore Tso
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Bill Manning
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Dave Crocker
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … James Seng
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Dave Crocker
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Abley
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Douglas Otis
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Bill Manning
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John C Klensin
- RE: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Cellario Luca
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Bob Braden
- Re: Single-letter names Eric Brunner-Williams
- RE: Single-letter names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2… John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Tony Finch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John Levine
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Bill Manning
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber