Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side meeting at IETF105.)

Mary B <mary.h.barnes@gmail.com> Thu, 11 July 2019 14:14 UTC

Return-Path: <mary.h.barnes@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 202341200FB for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 07:14:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.702
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CoJTCsm-K8vn for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 07:14:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71A8D120118 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 07:14:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id q22so12859569iog.4 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 07:14:02 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iDJK1Cf/Y4/g9vB1XXWy9iIpiuwW/qBphx9wq0EaHWw=; b=MeuKE/AnpTLzSFMhtGIc0hPFdJTZraIo9++QPZb09teZX8ORyO1AF8RTwczT22kOKq P+W1ssr+CmGH0wXto1gDi8MKJkmggss+GojXvlU8CkjM7By9X2iKukjdnD5TyR64wFqF gSHFvnokxOO0OwVCo8lceRDheRMjEo6wxoG4Pk6TY4OE8Nq5ohY9ZdCUx+p5f4FXCQyx o4p1THW2oE/6imwUQEAQcpqKmKf+8fsLf1+NjufkyeYsvyKnicajJcOLAsThFPspzhMm z4qyD/xBeGrz7f7Bu8b9/pPoJgc9Ft8E0xhPAjM8mHZ0tb8kzAatFtuZnp46HvfmM9TI p9rg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iDJK1Cf/Y4/g9vB1XXWy9iIpiuwW/qBphx9wq0EaHWw=; b=NY4APhuJHRRpKwcLf+huEoKxl6LBGd2ACWt1z5pWx694fdEMv66PU/3FU0K+AV5p6o wtjlSFvI5S6HlB2HBql1l1X2u53nAjSptv0Oko59PqH8px1lHFHQiUVqizTw7gwYHXbw lxWHdlGUFmQ16/td4YJ5lQCnWFuiIqjd3/9S2qUYYYpXUiKBKfF/2ctHprlY7aYLvP5/ cy/oo4FVap60Fc3IIpWT/a7FbmkPCDbGpuH4r+pgEp6aKEx3bWPJlk/v31OXhzU3SBk3 c2RwrVs4czEXiWdQh05iBXiieUMGqGklTJMTRTlixPbnYxKGQu8gToaYOPfl4KG36Ur/ 0waA==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVFm8tX6nLQ5HSzN2oZo8u0+x7N9b6rRpLg7hQ78QzIqpXBiDzL EwT+WrutE0oIgHD4uWHlMU4VwbH0Ux5+nkMqGTo=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw6MdNU6uQQrkPI1Q45U7FpQnw4bKQpkmjKK2PEWcRGTZxLhNaBhtU9lpg00+3jhNSGTeS6fshBat8tKvK4yCs=
X-Received: by 2002:a6b:b756:: with SMTP id h83mr4584669iof.147.1562854441680; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 07:14:01 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20190704140552.GE49950@hanna.meerval.net> <b0943792-1afc-0c94-51b7-f2d393ef39c5@network-heretics.com> <20190705205723.GI55957@shrubbery.net> <20190706185415.GB14026@mit.edu> <CABcZeBPgNr5UqQ0pLwwNu5wh0g9L9wCd6YyYKCUDO37SPru-_Q@mail.gmail.com> <20190708202612.GG60909@shrubbery.net> <9ae14ad1-f8d5-befb-64e4-fff063c88e02@network-heretics.com> <CABcZeBOH9LH8Jrz-A5eu9arqUb+bx8xs_eKWi0pyoh7a3qpOPA@mail.gmail.com> <20190708223350.GO3508@localhost> <af3b25d6-af16-a96a-c149-61d01afb4d01@network-heretics.com> <20190708233438.GP3508@localhost> <ea0b9894-ae9d-55a9-a082-af7aac5be66a@huitema.net> <944332dc-bb2a-0717-8b9f-254b036fe59f@gmx.de> <m2pnmingsi.wl-randy@psg.com> <CAL02cgTBL7w02sWx4kaqGLQe8bGm4jRMyMY9v7yJw57_Sp=PgA@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBMB+4xdfiqVX1o7BddPSaaszc4fx2-xgGQJAUKCPAQWew@mail.gmail.com> <m2muhmnd6r.wl-randy@psg.com> <17197.1562777716@localhost>
In-Reply-To: <17197.1562777716@localhost>
From: Mary B <mary.h.barnes@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 09:13:50 -0500
Message-ID: <CABmDk8=94012-33txzipTWZ7tTxaf-8=g5OpFiGP+Tun28rX7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side meeting at IETF105.)
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>, IETF Rinse Repeat <ietf@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d501ae058d6867b9"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/LbW6BtEOk6H-chLY1fsYyN7dCs0>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:14:04 -0000

I agree on the XML. And, there are tools that allow you to edit WYSIWG.  I
personally like working with the XML.  It takes me back to the IBM green
screen days 30 years ago and editing docs in GML.

Mary.

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 11:57 AM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
wrote:

>
> Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>     > done in the ietf.  i think the barriers we place to entry are not so
>     > much xml, which pretty much anyone who has a *technical* contribution
>     > can deal with in short.  it is arrogance, arcane rituals, artificial
>     > arguments, and alliteration.
>
> +1
>
> I expect engineers who want to contribute to how the Internet works to know
> how to make a HTML page that can validate using the most basic of editor.
> The web is now older than many university students.
>
> Our XML format is no more arcane than HTML4, and there are easier ways
> (markdown, word template, etc.), and people could also contribute to
> existing
> documents and get help from existing authors. It's not like someone should
> be doing base jumping on their first day here.
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>
>
>
>