Re: Concerns about Singapore
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Sat, 09 April 2016 22:35 UTC
Return-Path: <john-ietf@jck.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4757B12D195 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 15:35:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.896
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GEhqUCKzHp4S for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 15:35:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2613A12D18D for <ietf@ietf.org>; Sat, 9 Apr 2016 15:35:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=JcK-HP8200.jck.com) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from <john-ietf@jck.com>) id 1ap1Tj-000Cz7-JZ; Sat, 09 Apr 2016 18:35:43 -0400
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 18:35:38 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Concerns about Singapore
Message-ID: <2C0674FBC5C419DAC427E4BC@JcK-HP8200.jck.com>
In-Reply-To: <57097200.5050503@gmail.com>
References: <0D914666-C3D4-4CCE-AD5E-4E5B34EA1A73@piuha.net> <20160407182936.GA21340@pfrc.org> <CAB75xn780nNDjGa_Cc222J20-+1CCHt09Xp8KHzaK=n0xx51pg@mail.gmail.com> <5706B100.9040509@mnt.se> <CAB75xn6fmj84ROUtG5eUB3GerHx83hrEr3w5vSADY_g=BRg5FA@mail.gmail.com> <9B723FB0-6B93-4C85-ADD9-D423F873CF08@virtualized.org> <20160409155300.6283348.41255.10529@blackberry.com> <ADC8666A-436C-4AD4-BD48-9277601069F8@gmail.com> <57093CD3.3050502@gmail.com> <f5b1ceec-4cd5-55b5-5089-4a499ed0586c@bogus.com> <F2D3ACF5-C7BD-4D0C-8518-665D2EDAA6CA@cisco.com> <570955E3.2010205@gmail.com> <57096C65.7020409@gmail.com> <57097200.5050503@gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/LzHGKocoYNc2Kl4eHBVithXE1_g>
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 22:35:47 -0000
--On Saturday, April 09, 2016 13:20 -0800 Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com> wrote: > On 4/9/16 12:56 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> I think that's the point, and unfortunately, like so many >> things, it ends up as a judgment call. > Not really - Singapore has laws on the books that criminalize > gay relationships. That's a fact, not a judgment call. It's > also a fact that a law criminalizing consensual physical > relationships between adult men was upheld by the Singapore > Supreme Court less than two years ago and apparently has been > inconsistently and selectively enforced (that's not a good > thing). This has been said several times and I think needs to be stressed. There is a huge practical difference between * Having an obnoxious (to use a deliberately-mild term) law on the books that has not been enforced for many years, for which there is no reasonable expectation that it would be enforced, _and_ for which there are reasonable grounds for assuming that any attempt to enforce it would result in the rapid elimination of the law itself -- rapid enough to act as a further deterrent to attempts to enforce it, rather than causing IETF community members to feel "not very much" pain and suffering. * Having a law that has been enforced in recent memory, especially if it has also been validated (or "upheld") in recent memory by courts or other relevant authorities and/or created in recent years (as in the North Carolina situation that has been cited as an example). Referring to what Pete said at the plenary, the second set of cases should (actually MUST) never be treated as a matter of a judgment call or balancing factors. By analogy with the visa issue, a situation in which regular participants from some countries will find obtaining visas to be a major pain in the anatomy involves a judgment call; one in which participants from some countries cannot, under normal circumstances, obtain visas or in-meeting-country protections as citizens of their origin countries because the potential countries deliberately does not maintain diplomatic recognition or relations with those origin countries is a showstopper. I agree with Melinda that inconsistent and selective enforcement is bad news (and because it includes non-zero frequency of enforcement, moves a potential venue into the second category). I also think it is worth stressing that, especially in an area where rights to free speech and/or assembly and/or to hold demonstrations about a political position are even nominally valued, the ability to hold a parade or demonstration in favor of particular rights or legally-prohibited behavior without interference is of approximately zero value in predicting whether actual exercise of those rights or behavior would result in enforcement actions. I hope that, as the IAOC continues "actively seeking clarification", the distinction between the ability to express support without getting arrested and the ability to practice the nominally-criminal behavior without getting arrested (even occasionally) is well understood. It may be just me, but the distinctions really seem a lot more clear than the length of this discussion thread would seem to imply. john
- Concerns about Singapore Jari Arkko
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Adam Roach
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dhruv Dhody
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jeffrey Haas
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dhruv Dhody
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Donald Eastlake
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: Concerns about Singapore David Conrad
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Laurent Ciavaglia
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Laurent Ciavaglia
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Bert Wijnen (IETF)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- A distinction along Pete's dimensions (was: Re: C… John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Dave Crocker
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Christian Hopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: Concerns about Singapore nalini.elkins
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Jari Arkko
- China Ole Jacobsen
- SV: Concerns about Singapore Anne-Marie Eklund-Löwinder
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dirk-Willem van Gulik
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Paul Wouters
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Patrik Fältström
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael Richardson
- Re: China Jeffrey Haas
- Re: China Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stefan Winter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: China Michael Richardson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Toerless Eckert (eckert)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael Richardson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Ray Pelletier
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: China Scott Bradner
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: China Tim Chown
- Re: China Ray Pelletier
- Re: China Mary Barnes
- Re: SV: Concerns about Singapore Martin Rex
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: China HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore David Morris
- Re: China Ole Jacobsen
- Re: China Melinda Shore
- Re: China Ole Jacobsen
- Re: China Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael Richardson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John G. Scudder
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Follow-ups: Concerns about Singapore Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harish Pillay
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harish Pillay
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harish Pillay
- Re: China JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: China Ray Pelletier
- Re: China Stewart Bryant
- Re: China Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore joel jaeggli
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Patrik Fältström
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Warren Kumari
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore nalini.elkins
- Re: Concerns about Singapore chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places John Levine
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Robert Withers
- Re: Concerns about Singapore chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Vinayak Hegde
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- RE: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Hutton, Andrew
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stephen Farrell
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Virtual Meetings John Leslie
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stewart Bryant
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: Concerns about Singapore chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Richard Shockey
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concerns ab… Stephen Farrell
- Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Singapo… chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… David Farmer
- Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore lloyd.wood
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore George Michaelson
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Mark Andrews
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Miles Fidelman
- Re: Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Tim Chown
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Tim Chown
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore Mikael Abrahamsson
- Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singapore) Tim Chown
- Re: Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore Tim Chown
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Loa Andersson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Loa Andersson
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Ted Lemon
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Alia Atlas
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Tim Chown
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Christian Hopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Theodore V Faber
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dhruv Dhody
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Theodore V Faber
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Miles Fidelman
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Theodore V Faber
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stewart Bryant
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Andy Bierman
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places John R Levine
- UK blacklist (Re: Concerns about Singapore and ot… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: UK blacklist (Re: Concerns about Singapore an… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Alia Atlas
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: UK blacklist (Re: Concerns about Singapore an… Tim Chown
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places Tony Finch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places tom p.
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Yoav Nir
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Loa Andersson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jeffrey Haas
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Theodore V Faber
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Brian E Carpenter