Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words
Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> Wed, 30 March 2016 19:00 UTC
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Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 20:00:37 +0100
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words
From: Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>
To: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
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Cc: IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>, "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" <rse@rfc-editor.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net>
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On 30 March 2016 at 18:59, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote: > >> That such a rule differs from natural English -- which does not > typically > >> alter semantics based on case -- and that most readers of RFCs will not > have > >> such detailed knowledge of RFC2119 nor read RFCs with the care such a > rule > >> demands, my question BARRY and adam and EveryOne Else, is what makes > anyone > >> think that such a rule must (MUST?) ensure proper reading of RFCs so as > to > >> distinguish between normative portions and advisory portions? > > > > Sorry, I think that's nonsense. RFC 2119 and its capitalized keywords are > > well known to anyone reading any specifications, these days. I think we > can > > actually assume a priori knowledge of RFC 2119, for the most part. What I > > think would be far more surprising is this notion that the keywords, > noted > > and referenced in capitals, also have the same precise meaning and force > > when written normally. > > I agree with the first and third sentences of what Dave Cridland said, > but I think we have to be a little careful about the second. What I > think we can assume is an a priori knowledge of some of what 2119 > says: that there are these capitalized key words that have special > meanings. But it's quite clear from reviewing a lot of documents (one > of the fun things one gets to do as AD) that many writers do not know > how 2119 actually defines those. I see significant misunderstandings > about "SHOULD" and "MAY" all the time, examples of which I can give > you if you like. And one of my favourites is when someone used > "RECOMMENDED", I questioned it in a comment, and the response was, > "Yes, maybe we should switch that to 'SHOULD'." > > For future reference, I tend not to zero-index my sentences. ;-) I think that MUST/SHOULD/MAY (the former two tempered by NOT) are well-understood, although the strength of SHOULD is usually underestimated. OPTIONAL is probably obvious enough (though its implications may not be), and SHALL/RECOMMENDED are uncommon enough that they're probably not understood nearly as well. > As a complete side thing, I wonder how this all seems to > German-speakers, as German uses initial caps for all nouns. I wonder > if anyone even notices if someone fails to do that. I wonder if it > becomes puzzling, perhaps in some instances. > > Barry >
- Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John Leslie
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Barry Leiba
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John C Klensin
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Barry Leiba
- Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC2119 w… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Eric Gray
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Barry Leiba
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John Levine
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words David Farmer
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dick Franks
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words S Moonesamy
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Tony Finch
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Scott Bradner
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Loa Andersson
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Randy Bush
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Scott Bradner
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Ben Campbell
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Dave Cridland
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Dave Cridland
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Eliot Lear
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Dave Cridland
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Crocker
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Eliot Lear
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Lee Howard
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Ben Campbell
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Warren Kumari
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Cridland
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Crocker
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John C Klensin
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Pat Thaler
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Barry Leiba
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Cridland
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Mark Andrews
- RE: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
- RE: [rtcweb] Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question … Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words tom p.
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Lee Howard
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Francis Dupont