Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt ("Intellectual Property Rights in IETF Technology")
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Mon, 04 April 2016 16:00 UTC
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Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2016 11:59:46 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>, Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
Subject: Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt ("Intellectual Property Rights in IETF Technology")
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--On Monday, April 04, 2016 10:39 -0400 Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote: > A follow-up here: > > I'd be more comfortably with something more waffly, something > more like this: > > Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, acting as a > working group chair or Area Director can often be considered > "Participating" in all activities of the relevant working > group or area; as such, working group chairs and Area > Directors are expected to make a best, good-faith effort to > carry out the responsibilities of Participants. > > Or perhaps we want to separate WGCs from ADs here, and the > text needs more work in any case, but I hope people see the > general point. FWIW, I agree with Barry about the general point, but let me go a step further. I think we have two main goals in all of this: preventing someone from sneaking encumbered technology into a standard (or other IETF specification) without the community being aware of the encumbrance and avoiding the waste of time associated with someone letting the specification development process continue almost to the end before someone says "hey, we have a patent on that, do you really want to go back and start over?". The other thing that is important to remember is that, at least for a patent-holding organization, there is one sanction far more serious than anything the IETF can impose, and that is to try to enforce the patent and have a judge say "you acted in a deceitful fashion, inconsistent with the intent of patent laws, in getting people to use your technology, so the patent is unenforceable". That has actually occurred, multiple times, in situations where IPR claims have met standards bodies. I've been told that, in some cases, it has even resulted in nasty sanctions against the patent-holder, sanctions that go beyond invalidation or non-enforceability of the patent. At least from the point of view of that kind of sanction --one which many patent-holding organizations and their legal departments are likely to take more seriously than the risk of having to throw an IETF participant to the wolves-- it is very important that our intent be as clear as possible. If that means saying something I think should be obvious, which is that WG Chairs and ADs have extra decision-making authority and hence bear responsibility for being extra-careful, I think that is fine. If someone really wants to Participate, Contribute, and influence decisions while hiding IPR, or just to be systematically careless about disclosures, they will find loopholes to use as a basis for saying "I didn't _really_ violate the rules". Ironically, if we really try to specify every case and situation, we may create more such loopholes by creating a basis for someone to say "they were really specific about the cases that apply, this isn't an exact match for any of those, so I didn't have to disclose". So let's try to step back a bit, be sure that the draft reflects our intent as well as possible, and maybe even try to treat the specific cases we do define as illustrative examples rather than as rules that can be interpreted as more important than the intent. best, john
- Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt ("In… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Russ Housley
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott Bradner
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott Bradner
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Russ Housley
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott O. Bradner
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Alissa Cooper
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … joel jaeggli
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Eggert, Lars
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Ben Campbell
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Scott Bradner
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … joel jaeggli
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … joel jaeggli
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Alissa Cooper
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Alissa Cooper
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Michael Cameron
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … John C Klensin
- RE: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … S Moonesamy
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stephan Wenger
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call on draft-bradner-rfc3979bis-08.txt … Pete Resnick