RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> Wed, 24 February 2021 07:22 UTC
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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
CC: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org>, Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Subject: RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
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Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 07:22:24 +0000
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Hi Mary, It is great to hear that you also consider coding the fun part. Note that I am not saying that those who do not write code are not allowed to participate in the working group. Far from the truth. If you have read through the OAuth discussion you may have noticed that I am a big advocate of involving an wide range of expertise. To the point: IMHO there has to be a difference between the document author and other participants, most of which are passive. I see the role of a document author being more than just the person writing the text. Hopefully that person cares enough about the work he or she proposes to go the extra mile. If a document author does not care about implementing his or her protocol then we have a problem. Implementations, even if they are just prototypes, provide valuable feedback during the work on a specification. Someone has to do this work. Writing an implementation of a protocol can easily be several times the effort of writing a specification. I doubt it is a good approach to just wait till someone does the work for you. I am seeing this happening today in the IETF in many working groups. Do you agree that * Implementations provide valuable feedback during the standardization work, * Someone has to do the implementation work, * Implementations are time consuming (even if they are fun for many to write)? The culture of hands-on work needs to be more than a responsibility of the document authors. It is a culture that has to cut across the organization, from working group chairs to the IESG. Currently, there are disincentives to work on code as a document author. I want people with hands-on experience in the leadership of an engineering organization. For me this is a form of diversity. I hope this clarifies my point and convinces you that this is not about an elitist view. Ciao Hannes From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2021 11:26 PM To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>; ietf@ietf.org; GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org>; Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes, Ditto to what Brian said. I no longer write code although I have written LOTS of code for lots of systems for nearly 20 years that have run in the real world for decades (there's still Nortel DMS cranking away out there). And, while I write specs, I do work very closely with those implementing the specs and I don't write specs for things that aren't being considered as potential products/real systems. I ask lots of questions when I'm working with those coding, so I'm confident folks do understand what it is they're implementing. I worked with contractors implementing ACME for one company a few years back and I knew they didn't understand because I could see the questions they were asking in the open forums and I knew they were misinterpreting those responses. I found the place in the Let's Encrypt code where they needed to hook in the new code and I was almost at the point of writing the code myself over a weekend with my son, but it was their job. There's far more value in my being able to educate the folks coding, provide architectural feedback, talk to vendors to ensure that what they are providing meets the requirements (security in particular) as well as testing the system after it's been coded and providing feedback. And, in my experience, the coding is the easy part. When I was a developer, that was the fun part - the reward after you got all the required documentation written. And, I always develop specs from the perspective that a developer needs to use that as the basis for writing code, so I know how I would want things written to facilitate that process. So, your point about people writing specs not being the ones writing code is a little judgemental. I would say "elitist" and that's how it comes off, but I don't consider those that write code necessarily to be the elite. But, it is this notion that there are certain types of people at IETF that are amongst the elite that is one of the issues around inclusion. Regards, Mary. On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 3:51 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote: Hannes, On 23-Feb-21 22:51, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi Fernando, > > I just took a quick look at the document and I missed one point that increasingly worries me working in the IETF, namely the increasing number of participants who are not interested to write any code*. Can you justify "increasing number"? I don't mean compared to 1986, but compared (for example) to 2011? As long as I can remember, people have been concerned about participants who are "goers" rather than "doers" at meetings, and you seem to be adding a further concern, "doers" whose action is to write text rather than write code. Also, you don't mention operators, whose role is not to write code at all but whose contribution to the IETF is essential. So that's another category of "doers". I'd like to see some actual facts about these various categories of "doers". What % were they 10 or 20 years ago, and what % are they now? Has the hackathon changed the numbers? Etc. > I would include this aspect under diversity, particularly when talking about the new leadership election cycles. Yes, it should be on NomCom's radar. The need for enough ops people has long been understood, but recent development experience is also relevant. > Participating in some working groups I more and more get the impression to sit in a document writing class rather than in an Internet engineering organization. Since our principal output is text, that isn't so surprising, but I think there's a case for sending any spec that does not adhere to RFC7942/BCP205 back to the WG. > Ciao > Hannes > > *: I am also including authors of protocol specifications that do not implement their own specifications. That's a bit cruel. In larger organisations, it might be totally infeasible. But again, RFC7942 is our friend. Regards Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf <ietf-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Fernando Gont > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2021 1:07 AM > To: 'ietf@ietf.org<mailto:ietf@ietf.org>' <ietf@ietf.org<mailto:ietf@ietf.org>>; GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org<mailto:gendispatch@ietf.org>>; Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com<mailto:moore@network-heretics.com>> > Subject: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF > > Folks, > > We have submitted a new I-D, entitled "Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF". > > The I-D is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-gont-diversity-analysis-00.txt > > We expect that our document be discussed in the gendispatch wg (https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/gendispatch/about/). But given the breadth of the topic and possible views, we'll be glad to discuss it where necessary/applicable/desired. > > As explicitly noted in our I-D, we're probably only scratching the surface here -- but we believe that our document is probably a good start to discuss many aspects of diversity that deserve discussion. > > Thanks! > > Regards, > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com<mailto:fgont@si6networks.com> > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. > -- Gendispatch mailing list Gendispatch@ietf.org<mailto:Gendispatch@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
- Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Bron Gondwana
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Dominique Lazanski
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dominique Lazanski
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Carsten Bormann
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Bron Gondwana
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Rifaat Shekh-Yusef
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Bron Gondwana
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Stephen Farrell
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Roman Danyliw
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Donald Eastlake
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Carsten Bormann
- Making headway in the IETF [was Diversity and Inc… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Making headway in the IETF [was Diversity and… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Mark Nottingham
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Rifaat Shekh-Yusef
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Mary Barnes
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bill Woodcock
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Tim Bray
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Bron Gondwana
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Jim Fenton
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Building Real Internet Platforms Mark Nottingham
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Larry Masinter
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Jim Manico
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Carsten Bormann
- We appear to still be litigating OAuth, oops Bron Gondwana
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF S Moonesamy
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiveness … Keith Moore
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Carsten Bormann
- RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Bron Gondwana
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Neil Madden
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Aaron Parecki
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Jim Willeke
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Justin Richer
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Aaron Parecki
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Mary Barnes
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Tim Bray
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Christian Huitema
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Michael Richardson
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Phillip Hunt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Michael Thomas
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Michael Thomas
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Christian Hopps
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Bron Gondwana
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Jen Linkova
- Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the … Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Christian Huitema
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF S Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF S Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Seán Kelleher
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Seán Kelleher
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Andrew Campling
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Marc Petit-Huguenin
- document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Joel M. Halpern
- RE: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Larry Masinter
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF S Moonesamy
- RE: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Larry Masinter
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Julian Reschke
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Colin Perkins
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Andrew McConachie
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bill Woodcock
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Justin Richer
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Tim Bray
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Aaron Parecki
- How to tell people... Was: We appear to still be … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: How to tell people... Was: We appear to still… Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Julian Reschke
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- RE: document writing/editing tools used by IETF STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Christian Huitema
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Michael Thomas
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… David Waite
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Aaron Parecki
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF John Levine
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Michael Richardson
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: How to tell people... Was: We appear to still… Michael Richardson
- Re: How to tell people... Was: We appear to still… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF John Levine
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Keith Moore
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Michael Richardson
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Christian Huitema
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… John Wroclawski
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF John Levine
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bron Gondwana
- HTML for email (was: Re: document writing/editing… Keith Moore
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: HTML for email (was: Re: document writing/edi… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Jeff Craig
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: HTML for email tom petch
- RE: HTML for email Larry Masinter
- Re: document writing/editing tools used by IETF Salz, Rich
- RE: document writing/editing tools used by IETF STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: HTML for email Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: HTML for email (was: Re: document writing/edi… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: HTML for email Nico Williams
- Re: HTML for email Nico Williams
- Re: HTML for email Nico Williams
- Re: HTML for email Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: HTML for email Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: HTML for email Bron Gondwana
- Re: HTML for email John Levine
- RE: HTML for email Larry Masinter
- Re: HTML for email Brian E Carpenter
- Re: HTML for email Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: HTML for email tom petch
- Re: HTML for email tom petch
- Re: HTML for email ned+ietf
- Re: HTML for email Nick Hilliard
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: HTML for email ned+ietf
- Re: HTML for email tom petch
- Re: HTML for email Nick Hilliard
- Re: HTML for email Nico Williams
- Re: HTML for email tom petch
- Re: HTML for email Nico Williams
- Re: HTML for email Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- RE: HTML for email Larry Masinter
- Re: HTML for email Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: HTML for email Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: HTML for email Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Wes Hardaker