Re: Old directions in social media.

Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Tue, 05 January 2021 20:21 UTC

Return-Path: <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7740A3A0FF3 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 5 Jan 2021 12:21:07 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.179
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.179 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.262, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NfbyVXOfvJQM for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 5 Jan 2021 12:21:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0B7A3A0FF4 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 5 Jan 2021 12:21:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9811C3C; Tue, 5 Jan 2021 15:21:04 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 05 Jan 2021 15:21:05 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=mGTx+t 8y0vq1AMThgnKisH42fzMhREgFtdXWkgZH32s=; b=TULNZ06VLwrZnhvg65lyo6 Lj0oLtPuhy3Wmwk9UyTnJ+Y6DJUDsV7log+g7TX0gmfGnJ3Br9IH4wlNV4pRLDWF NoL40HzQOcxF2Zpf4jplJeKFFqlce3xHCNsN2F6XeKoHti5fyH/Oq7f1SHyuNpln utt5PUXsTCw1LvKBUQI0W1CpvyNImKw/A7UjoY3RhAAynSh1s/bouKZAD2KV2Vh1 DNroXz14kRF1nquko6gX8rn/yl7WSOQBo+QhU/0EMnfGexm59dadOoKhGQQwfLAf mildAPoGtBMi4NJ8B553ZrW6oGZwMlKcdIrqJAmcvH9BmPY7YDj8HLGyn80Vx9eQ ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:MMr0X1lct4BdmJHT3Yut38RzbmmUvN0JAvLqyrhT-qWY8Q29T8bBNw> <xme:MMr0X2FRFerwg5j9-NrguQPSg-qsJdMm3GjQAxPiyGro2AYbvN5KYNM86Vonodq7z 9iLuaPvDD2BHQ>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrvdefjedguddttdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgesrgdtreertdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihht hhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh eqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepveefteduieegtdelvddvtddufeejjeffvdefteejieeu lefgtdfggedtffektedunecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhush htvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:MMr0X9VrMM7FDUATNnvkUDpmyffKIVhomz5ZXWqaXUCF5WWb5MJtBg> <xmx:MMr0X9w9JJ6tYS9B94Zae44qXDbjgAYvy858HTRwygoDEiZY10-D3g> <xmx:MMr0X7NHrNuSKhon3GP7eEqhlWH_VDcsrLJ1ZGEj7MMUrl9xug-HzA> <xmx:MMr0X4C2zMk1YSQ67eqcSGenPGAis28uYnuYDsT5Pb_Jm1XRvmJzHg>
Received: from [192.168.1.85] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id BEC4A24005A; Tue, 5 Jan 2021 15:21:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Old directions in social media.
To: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org>
Cc: IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>
References: <CAJU8_nUostFKjKU43wk-RG5+8SYgMc8Ag-MWs=UXi7x8YXTaKA@mail.gmail.com> <D152D8C5-1863-4BEE-9DA4-A1C31AAC809C@network-heretics.com> <47B4988E-5865-40FF-93C4-9E7D1A63C074@akamai.com>
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Message-ID: <2353617a-2a45-9143-9529-dac1cc16634e@network-heretics.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 15:21:03 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <47B4988E-5865-40FF-93C4-9E7D1A63C074@akamai.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B0D5DBB764BA25C2571CD8E8"
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/QtDiiT5bckXV3iwj5l5P3MWqBO0>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 20:21:08 -0000

On 1/5/21 2:16 PM, Salz, Rich wrote:

> We had a WG on this, we wrote and published an RFC on this.
>
Yes, and now we have enough experience with this experiment to know what 
was good and what was bad about it.   So let's learn from our experience 
and make adjustments based on that experience.  Instead of trying to 
cripple IETF.
>
> Let’s move on to more useful arguments, like requiring all IETF 
> communications to be plaintext email delivered via port 25 to an IPv4 
> address.
>
Plaintext = good, at least until someone solves the problem of a wide 
variety of user agents being able to edit replies to HTML email in a 
uniform fashion.   We've run that experiment for what, 25 years now, and 
though there has been some improvement, overall the results are poor.

Fortunately, MIME emails look the same regardless of whether IPv4, IPv6 
(or X.25, BITNET, DECnet, or uucp, ...) was used to deliver the mail.  
Properly chosen layers are a Good Thing.

Keith

p.s. I consider your message personally insulting and therefore 
inappropriate for IETF.