Re: BCP97bis

Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> Mon, 18 October 2021 21:31 UTC

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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
cc: "Murray S. Kucherawy" <superuser@gmail.com>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, ietf <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: BCP97bis
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 17:31:10 -0400
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Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> wrote:
    > On Mon, Oct 18, 2021 at 10:41 AM Murray S. Kucherawy <superuser@gmail.com>
    > wrote:

    >> On Mon, Oct 18, 2021 at 7:36 AM Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>> - The IESG has had multiple cases during my time there where we
    >>> haven't had access to some normative reference, and so we can't do our
    >>> job.  This has added long delays to document processing.  That's what we're
    >>> trying to address here.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> I believe it is far more common for the IESG to review and progress
    >>> documents without having all normative references tracked down and read.
    >>>
    >>
    >> The role doesn't matter, does it?  As an Area Review Team member or even a
    >> Working Group participant faced with a document with normative references
    >> behind a paywall, you face the same problem.
    >>

    > Yes. No. Maybe.

    > There are some protocols where the only people
    > implementing/interoperating/whatever are all part of a small group that
    > already knows and understands the <whatever is in the paywalled document>,
    > and / or are willing to shell out the money to pay for it.

    > A recent example of this is
    > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6lo-nfc/ -- there are likely to
    > only be a very small number of people who will implement the tranport part,
    > and they already understand the "NFC Logical Link Control Protocol version
    > 1.3" and / or would be willing to purchase it.

I think that actually, this document is a really good example of how things
go badly.

Because only a small number of people have access to that background
document, nobody can meaningfully review it.
Maybe that's why the document has been around for *7* years.

The shepherd write up does not tell me where to get that background document,
although apparently I'm among those who discussed the document.  I don't know
the background for one, and I certainly couldn't implement without the
background.

    > Yes, in an ideal world, this would be an open, free, etc document -- but,
    > absent an ideal world, I still think that it's better that how IPv6 is
    > transmitted over NFC using 6LoWPAN is documented in an RFC than having an
    > undocumented protocol....

I mostly agree with you.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide