Re: "why I quit writing internet standards"
Spencer Dawkins <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> Wed, 16 April 2014 14:48 UTC
Return-Path: <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ABE01A01E5 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 16 Apr 2014 07:48:29 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 0
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_MUTUALBENEFIT=2, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RswvzVWaFNTK for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 16 Apr 2014 07:48:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ob0-x232.google.com (mail-ob0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F271A01C0 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 2014 07:48:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ob0-f178.google.com with SMTP id wn1so870994obc.23 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 16 Apr 2014 07:48:18 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=U7XE7z68TXOLXUTHF+NQvpmO1TGwIZy5VrJzHq1ae4Y=; b=BJo3E0NQzun9EDepyK5GO7OvtMvI8FWjIjSCcNVA++kWoSxYE3rlMHcdEWibgwlL5S uVJNrfYC6cwepdBjNnHR77LOKHnHG94d/2YrU7P3A9TN+x+M3PvAnzhwQTyWaBzhEtoX cqKdl/NZYnuor608WNw2C51vKZLWkWQQg8UwhjD5OhrUnhXgPuqmvj2xJX8krAFZseji B9MW3Qvinjiixcl78kT6pbzApzaTLyOlQaiiXVoYZMe8i+68TPtQp+Lb62k49gImJag+ /0MrgcnFUFobI39GU0LyN2x+0PQvN7h/88N5GVFunt0yS06ZbcGyrQ0dx4XEAE3PGcqx 0/sw==
X-Received: by 10.182.120.5 with SMTP id ky5mr2165546obb.11.1397659698149; Wed, 16 Apr 2014 07:48:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.0.13] (cpe-76-187-7-89.tx.res.rr.com. [76.187.7.89]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id sm4sm23989295obc.3.2014.04.16.07.48.16 for <multiple recipients> (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 16 Apr 2014 07:48:17 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <534E982F.5070005@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 09:48:15 -0500
From: Spencer Dawkins <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com>, Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>
Subject: Re: "why I quit writing internet standards"
References: <CF71721A.180A9%wesley.george@twcable.com> <201404142144.s3ELipR8014504@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <C16CB48C-9462-4514-B675-D750D4DC9357@piuha.net> <534DB785.7040609@gmail.com> <EF72D31A-8134-42DB-B750-D5C3831869EE@tzi.org> <534DC46C.60703@gmail.com> <8962F23C-1486-4F52-AD58-BE64CFBC3B4A@thomasclausen.org> <534E8D3B.7080705@mti-systems.com> <4B1D87F9-ED94-4B4A-B355-CE4D6AE7145B@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <4B1D87F9-ED94-4B4A-B355-CE4D6AE7145B@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/RPoXz4q2TVbppLkohfjhb0f98kI
Cc: "ietf@ietf.org List" <ietf@ietf.org>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 14:48:29 -0000
On 04/16/2014 09:14 AM, Yoav Nir wrote: > On Apr 16, 2014, at 5:01 PM, Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com> wrote: > >> On 4/16/2014 9:31 AM, Thomas Clausen wrote: >>> FWIW, my personal belief is that "running code" should be a >>> requirement for anything going std. track -- and that a (mandatory) >>> period as Experimental prior to go std. track would yield the stable >>> spec against which to reasonably build code, and run >>> (interoperability) tests, fix bugs, etc. If after (pulling a number >>> out my hat here) a year as Experimental there's no running code, then >>> that's probably a good indicator, also, as to if this is something >>> the IETF should bother doing.... >>> >> >> If there's no running code, or pretty concrete plans and commitments >> to get there, then there's really no need for an Experimental RFC that >> will get a number and last forever. An I-D that expires in direct >> conjunction with the interest and energy in it is just fine. > Except that an I-D usually doesn’t get IANA allocations, so you use a number from the private space, and you have to coordinate with anyone who wants to interoperate about which private number to use. All this is true, AFAICT. In a private conversation yesterday with My Esteemed Colleague From Dublin, he asked why I thought we needed to pick AN answer, out of all the possible ways for working groups to do what we're talking about here. Stephen was right - we don't have to pick AN answer. What's appropriate for some proposals may not be appropriate for other proposals (and IANA considerations would be one of several flavors of constraints that would vary across proposals). But I think picking a few answers would be helpful. One of the suggestions in this thread was that we put specifications that are thought ready for prototyping in the same place, so people who want to contribute to the process as implementers know where to look. Not saying that's the right thing to do, but it's probably something worth thinking about (rather than, "for that specification, in that working group, if they think it's ready for prototyping, you should look THERE, but for this other specification ..."). Finally, I'll say what I usually say at this point in the conversation, which is that when we were talking about stuff like this in the early 2000s, the expectation was that we would wait until we had IETF consensus to modify our process BCPs. It turns out that's a really high bar. The IESG ended up approving https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3933 as one way to try things without making irrevocable changes to the way things work for everyone. RFC 3933 is still in effect (as BCP 93), and it allows experiments with changes to BCPs that would go away if they turn out to be bad ideas. There are probably one or two reasonable process experiments that would be appropriate as we try to figure out ways to (as Jari suggested): o ... work to mutual benefit with open source efforts (those that would benefit from an IETF-like environment)? o ... better build specs to (rough) consensus, including making sure that (an understood) vocal minority opinion does not block progress? o ... focus on running code. As we said at the IETF 89 Admin Plenary when discussing TRAM and DART, the IESG can move pretty quickly when we get coherent proposals. Please talk amongst yourselves, if this matters to you. Spencer, who (full disclosure) was co-author on RFC 3933, speaking only as a retired process wonk
- "why I quit writing internet standards" George, Wes
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" David Meyer
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Alia Atlas
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Christian de Larrinaga
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Andy Bierman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Ted Lemon
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Michael Richardson
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Tim Wicinski
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Andy Bierman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" David Meyer
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Dale R. Worley
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Scott Kitterman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Jari Arkko
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Spencer Dawkins
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Carsten Bormann
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Spencer Dawkins
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Clausen
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Wesley Eddy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Yoav Nir
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Clausen
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Wesley Eddy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Spencer Dawkins
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Clausen
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Melinda Shore
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Carsten Bormann
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Clausen
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Spencer Dawkins
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Dave Cridland
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Nadeau
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Nadeau
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Benoit Claise
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Benoit Claise
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Benoit Claise
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Nadeau
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Yoav Nir
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" S Moonesamy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Benoit Claise
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Douglas Otis
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Andy Bierman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Hector Santos
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Dave Crocker
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Scott Kitterman
- Re: DMARC not-WG, was "why I quit writing interne… John Levine
- Re: DMARC not-WG, was "why I quit writing interne… Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC not-WG, was "why I quit writing interne… Hector Santos
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Dave Crocker
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Scott Kitterman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Dave Crocker
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Scott Kitterman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Douglas Otis