Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely literate minutes)
Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Sun, 02 December 2012 13:41 UTC
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Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 08:40:57 -0500
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely literate minutes)
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Cc: Randall Gellens <randy@qti.qualcomm.com>, ietf@ietf.org
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On 12/02/2012 03:27 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Yes. It escapes me why we would hamper ourselves by *not* using diagrams > to explain complicated new ideas. The first time. Not the second and > subsequent times; that's why we have proceedings. > > It also escapes me why we would hamper ourselves by not projecting lists > of open issues. True, almost everyone has a little screen on their knee. > Mine is usually full of jabber sessions for clashing WG meetings, the > text currently under discussion, etc. I prefer to see the current > discussion item on the big screen. > > We should also remember that in our community with very diverse ways > of pronouncing the English language, the words on the big screen are > sometimes better understood than the words spoken. > > I do agree that the ability to write new stuff on the screen in real > time was a significant advantage of the old acetate sheet. That is > clumsy to do with PPT. > > I have no objection to using PPT to display diagrams or lists of open issues. And I understand that PPT can be of aid to those (including me) who have trouble with understanding the diverse ways that English is spoken. But I still maintain that there's something about PPT and similar tools that tend to degrade interaction rather than facilitate it, and that this is tremendously damaging to the way IETF working groups conduct their face-to-face sessions. For example, PPT is much better at conveying short, bulleted lists than diagrams. It's tedious to draw diagrams with PPT, and I suspect, with most similar tools. Most computers still have keyboards which are good for inputing text, but most computers don't have an input stylus for drawing. And it's much more time consuming to draw adequate drawings with a mouse or trackpad than to draw them on acetate with a pen. For another, PPT's ability to rearrange slides actually makes it really good for working out the order of things to be presented. There's nothing at all wrong with using PPT in that way, as long as the slides aren't actually projected on the screen, and the speaker doesn't feel compelled to follow them closely. (The PPT files could still be made available for download, even in advance, thus inviting participants to prepare their own questions and counterpoints in advance.) Also, there's something about PPT that seems to encourage speakers to attempt to capture everything that's possibly relevant to a topic, and thus, to fill up all available time, leaving none for discussion. Maybe this is why the best way that I've ever discovered to use PPT is to help me collect my thoughts and organize them into a logical sequence for presentation; then to identify the points which are best conveyed by drawing and to incorporate those drawings into the presentation; then to "hide" all or almost all of the text-only slides. If we want to work effectively, we must not let our work habits be dictated by newer technology, especially when older and simpler technology works better. If slide projectors, sheets of acetate, and appropriate pens are no longer readily available, perhaps we need to ship large dry-erase boards and markers for those to every meeting. Keith p.s. I certainly acknowledge the difficulty in understanding different dialects of English. But it strikes me that part of the problem is the high level of ambient noise in the presentation environment, resulting in large part from having large numbers of people in the room who aren't paying (much) attention and who are each generating small amounts of noise, say by typing on laptops, or chatting quietly with those sitting near them. This is just one way that people who are just "camping out" in a room distract from what is going on.
- "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Barry Leiba
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Marc Blanchet
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" joel jaeggli
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" ned+ietf
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" t.p.
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Melinda Shore
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Andrew Sullivan
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Geoff Huston
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" David Meyer
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- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" SM
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" David Morris
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Joe Touch
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Hector Santos
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" John Leslie
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Donald Eastlake
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Brian E Carpenter
- RE: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" John C Klensin
- Barely literate minutes (was: "IETF work is done … SM
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Randy Bush
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Yoav Nir
- RE: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" tglassey
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Keith Moore
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Dave Crocker
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Eliot Lear
- Pre-IETF work ( was - Re: "IETF work is done on t… Dave Crocker
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Barely literate minutes (was: "IETF work is d… John C Klensin
- Re: Barely literate minutes Scott Brim
- Re: Barely literate minutes Sam Hartman
- Re: Barely literate minutes Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Barely literate minutes Dave Crocker
- Re: Barely literate minutes Sam Hartman
- Re: Barely literate minutes Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Barely literate minutes Pete Resnick
- Re: Barely literate minutes Randy Bush
- Re: Barely literate minutes Dave Crocker
- Re: Barely literate minutes SM
- Re: Barely literate minutes Bob Hinden
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Geoff Huston
- Re: Barely literate minutes John C Klensin
- RE: Barely literate minutes Hutton, Andrew
- Re: Barely literate minutes t.p.
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Eliot Lear
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Alessandro Vesely
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Edward Lewis
- Re: Barely literate minutes Barry Leiba
- Re: Barely literate minutes Dave Crocker
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" SM
- RE: Barely literate minutes Lee Howard
- Re: Barely literate minutes Randy Bush
- Re: Barely literate minutes Pete Resnick
- Re: Barely literate minutes Suresh Krishnan
- Re: Barely literate minutes Fernando Gont
- Re: Barely literate minutes Keith Moore
- PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely lit… Keith Moore
- Re: Barely literate minutes Dave Crocker
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Randall Gellens
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Randy Bush
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Melinda Shore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Randall Gellens
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… SM
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… John C Klensin
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… John C Klensin
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… John Levine
- English spoken here (was: PowerPoint considered h… SM
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: English spoken here (was: PowerPoint consider… John C Klensin
- Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken here) Dave Crocker
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… John C Klensin
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Dave Crocker
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Keith Moore
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Melinda Shore
- Presentation vs. Discussion sessions (was: PowerP… Keith Moore
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions Melinda Shore
- Re: PowerPoint considered harmful (was Re: Barely… Randall Gellens
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions Keith Moore
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions Melinda Shore
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions Keith Moore
- Acculturation [was Re: PowerPoint considered harm… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: English spoken here (was: PowerPoint consider… SM
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Randy Bush
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Randy Bush
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… joel jaeggli
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Dave Crocker
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Melinda Shore
- Re: "IETF work is done on the mailing lists" Tim Chown
- RE: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… George, Wes
- RE: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… George, Wes
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- RE: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… George, Wes
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Tim Chown
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Keith Moore
- Re: English spoken here (was: PowerPoint consider… Steven Bellovin
- Re: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Tony Hansen
- RE: Useful slide tex (was - Re: English spoken he… Lee Howard
- Re: English spoken here Keith Moore
- Re: English spoken here Steven Bellovin
- Re: English spoken here John C Klensin
- Re: Presentation vs. Discussion sessions (was: Po… Randall Gellens