Re: Old directions in social media.

Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> Thu, 07 January 2021 18:52 UTC

Return-Path: <mike@fresheez.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A233A0A73 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 7 Jan 2021 10:52:43 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.013
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.013 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.262, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mtcc.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cuPgh8zUiEbA for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 7 Jan 2021 10:52:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-pl1-x636.google.com (mail-pl1-x636.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::636]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3350A3A0A4D for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 7 Jan 2021 10:52:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-pl1-x636.google.com with SMTP id s15so4007164plr.9 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 07 Jan 2021 10:52:42 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mtcc.com; s=fluffulence; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=7dDLIJW1JZcckWSh0IaJ+sA5PVRYjXo8ijs5gMCCB6Y=; b=YFaRiBS/7QRXLPE1fH9aFFksAn+DtoTXN5DjKiBz7awCjCIvYzT5nyM0RO+7HKHk+m nLELZeiVchzM0freSqY+w01ZmLR6E6Dhdi2xk82b6Meid1avfL4C54thlvKvuzEitks/ uWDhXp9vaUvY6j00QVacdpVH15VjGlDreG8+uGPw51e9bAXJy0OsaEmC1Q1KIuSNtyBA biTC+4gsc/mPxtKVBZZdz7tMuTjt0IeHbtDQnr10vNIifccs5EdxTUAqRdf7uQO8n6nC i6B0Y0p2jdOl+8TuaWORJ34iW3RFsWJ4Y8iPNu+FFD3KbbZM3wmWJihEVcaZGPwAGk5Z fuHQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=7dDLIJW1JZcckWSh0IaJ+sA5PVRYjXo8ijs5gMCCB6Y=; b=EAU1ZoTXOuI32oDWa09ctRbAwCrhUEd8rwoAzesqATgbJ4+5p/DKfaTRZDDvvv2zqA I47cl+4NJbM/DTWtwf5KBkK52FLgqrOKweh1UCV4oPljXwbG9K46LTdZ8EhPx9WvAar7 0hpAd677/Ttn+eFUdvQl/iQ9cixogTNCJO2ocWg6LZZG2MLj97OrvGkw27/NZgJdNYXt pppZSPrfL/rDf4ETFzrLsJ+ZwRvaj5oMQ0QhY+RsbAukOtWeyrcvdbb3BO1eiKNyd4YQ JvveJPQ9lgo20snINGfoZ+VqaVq88thDnZxtLAjq4riKDs7JE45N+BMdRte4lHgnIiGF aTjQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Xgw7krnErvcH54unhdGoWZa7r2kQ3IituwGB98CZCQ3oJ/REv EXjIJi8wUUsrV7O+eA9s9mcfb7ga5WhW/zos
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzciEdXK3zHxadq5h0UiWWDS32jDKAGd0Ua4TNqOQS0jq/09/sFVfE0/D5m8mI0TEoAtvAjrQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:c70f:: with SMTP id o15mr10339395pjt.40.1610045561106; Thu, 07 Jan 2021 10:52:41 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mike-mac.lan (107-182-33-192.volcanocom.com. [107.182.33.192]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w21sm6493781pfq.67.2021.01.07.10.52.39 for <ietf@ietf.org> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Jan 2021 10:52:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Old directions in social media.
To: ietf@ietf.org
References: <CAMm+Lwg1-pxKU8vMinFDUbVca52VgFzTOOSJMnJjaUJvF6PLew@mail.gmail.com> <062d01d6e387$39c46270$ad4d2750$@acm.org> <CAJU8_nWD3MwLs5aVNMi_3LqZysrfjv0N7N3ujV-zhqxiFh3tsA@mail.gmail.com> <788651ca-0c84-7a54-9c48-b962faed635f@network-heretics.com> <CAJU8_nXSE-E2AVrJnqe5ZifR+qGhXscNCFXQRDj_GU1r=hNOyw@mail.gmail.com> <70416f47-7c31-8571-02ce-f95ff386d54f@network-heretics.com> <X/TtgTtl02AMyns8@mit.edu> <AM0PR08MB371623409DE8AB03CC667234FAD00@AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <866b1357-ec50-7765-4277-fd4fba8d793e@network-heretics.com> <AM0PR08MB37166B8E57C293917737D9D6FAD00@AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <d8454121-f6fb-3cbb-3149-656e20efce96@joelhalpern.com> <AM0PR08MB3716C960817BCCFEE4F9F911FAAF0@AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <edf8225b-d005-4f99-b96f-41bc49633da3@joelhalpern.com> <AM0PR08MB37169778B08F3F83413194B0FAAF0@AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <01RU3E1RGXW4004QVR@mauve.mrochek.com>
From: Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com>
Message-ID: <e3b4e262-9d4d-2c5c-5588-67d37d8cedc4@mtcc.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2021 10:52:39 -0800
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.6.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <01RU3E1RGXW4004QVR@mauve.mrochek.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/RtCgXzpIRUznuk5rY9xgR6ZEek8>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2021 18:52:43 -0000

On 1/7/21 9:27 AM, ned+ietf@mauve.mrochek.com wrote:
> Speaking as 30 year IETF participant, including four years as an apps AD and
> many stints as a WG chair, this is not now and has never been my experience. I
> could not even begin count the number of times I've had to review mailing list
> discussions as part of reviewing a draft.

I hope that you would agree that that exercise is much akin to looking 
for needles in haystacks, right? That's why I'm saying that an editing 
audit trail to establish the "why" would be useful, and could hopefully 
narrow the search space substantially, if not answer those questions 
outright.


>
> This was especially true when performing cross-area reviews as an AD, where
> let's just say that asking questions about contentious issues without being
> intimately familiar with the background was not a recipe for success.
>
> And in the past month or so, while participating in DMARC and EMAILCORE, I've
> been compelled to dig into the archives of various lists at least a dozen
> times, maybe more.


What is your take of the current regimen in DMARC of requiring issues to 
be opened on the issue tracker and only discussed when the chairs get 
around to it? I've never seen that before, but I've been MIA for quite a 
while too. For one, it requires active participation by the chairs which 
has been... its own problem. But it also causes a weird flow given the 
FIFO nature of an issues tracker. That was my first experience with the 
IETF issues tracker, and frankly it left me with the feeling that it was 
an easy way for chairs to just dismiss an issue in hopes the person with 
the issue forgets about it.

Mike